The Perceived Weaknesses in Wing Chun: Did Master Lee leave Wing Chun Too Early?

[StormShadow]

I often think about this as jkd was the first psuedo-"Chinese" art I learned. Since jkd was a mixture of arts, of what master lee thought what worked best for him it is harder to pin down in definitive terms hence the quotes. The story goes, the fight in San Fran, chinatown forced master lee to really rethink his fighting knowledge. The weaknesses that master lee saw in wing chun, not enough movement, not adaptive to situations, confined to certain movements and principles; I wonder did he have enough advanced wing chun knowledge to legitimately see wing chun as having these deficiencies? If Bruce Lee would have continued to train under wing chun, do you believe he would have still had these thoughts about the art? As practitioners of wing chun, do you also see the art as having the deficiencies mentioned or any others?

 

[geezer]

I think Bruce Lee truthfully followed his own path. He was an "original" and an innovator. Even if Wing Chun had completely met his self-defense needs, I doubt whether he would have been content to spend his life as a disciple of others.

But then, although I have practiced WC for a long time (since '79), I don't believe any martial art is complete or perfect for everybody. If I had Bruce's talent, temperament and intellect, I'd probably be creating my own version of JKD under some other name. The only reason I haven't gone that route is that I don't have that much ability and passion.

 

[James Kovacich]

Bruce Lee didn't leave WC. He left Hong Kong for America due to his getting in trouble on the streets. The fact that he had an American birth certificate probably had a big part.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[yak sao]

I've wondered this same thing. If Bruce Lee had never became a movie star, would he have gone on to become the next "Yip Man"?

Or is the fact that he was a movie star, that he is given more credit than he deserves; and would have been just another (very good) WC man were it not for his notoriety.

So much of what BL espoused were restatements of WC ideas and concepts. Had he continued in the art and had the opportunity to delve deeper into it, perhaps the WC world would have had a major metamorphosis....but then again, without his notoriety, WC would most likely have stayed a relatively obscure fighting method and no one would have much noticed anyway.

 

[Argus]

Sometimes I wonder if Bruce Lee would have come a full circle as he grew older and lost much of his athleticism.

 

[Cyriacus]

This is the guy people consider to be phenomenal.
Think about it for a minute.

 

[geezer]

This is the guy people consider to be phenomenal. Think about it for a minute.

Cyriacus, pardon if I'm a bit thick, but your point is....?

 

[Cyriacus]

Cyriacus, pardon if I'm a bit thick, but your point is....?

Just extending off some of the above points that Bruce Lee really wasnt something special, as far as his proficiency went. Also, i kinda dislike his existence for having people associate a certain quote with him which has nothing to do with him

 

[_JLC_]

I wonder did he have enough advanced wing chun knowledge to legitimately see wing chun as having these deficiencies?

I've always been curious how Wing Chung would do against a good kicking style MA, using hit-and-run style tactics. If the kicker kept ambushing with leg kicks then retreating back out of range it could be hard for the W.C to contest with a more fixed stance. But if the WC guy closed the distance it could be all over

 

[Cyriacus]

I've always been curious how Wing Chung would do against a good kicking style MA, using hit-and-run style tactics. If the kicker kept ambushing with leg kicks then retreating back out of range it could be hard for the W.C to contest with a more fixed stance. But if the WC guy closed the distance it could be all over

WC has lunging though, doesnt it? For situations like that?

 

[Vajramusti]

I often think about this as jkd was the first psuedo-"Chinese" art I learned. Since jkd was a mixture of arts, of what master lee thought what worked best for him it is harder to pin down in definitive terms hence the quotes. The story goes, the fight in San Fran, chinatown forced master lee to really rethink his fighting knowledge. The weaknesses that master lee saw in wing chun, not enough movement, not adaptive to situations, confined to certain movements and principles; I wonder did he have enough advanced wing chun knowledge to legitimately see wing chun as having these deficiencies? If Bruce Lee would have continued to train under wing chun, do you believe he would have still had these thoughts about the art? As practitioners of wing chun, do you also see the art as having the deficiencies mentioned or any others?

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Bruce Lee did not enough wing chun to make those kinds of generalizations... about everyone"s wing chun.
Wing chun knowledge varies.

 

[StormShadow]

This is the guy people consider to be phenomenal.
Think about it for a minute.

In the clip.. he was demonstrating punching power. Have you ever moved a heavy bag liked that before with hooks and straight punches? He was quite phenomenal actually. Super athletic, speed, pound for pound strength and IQ.

 

[StormShadow]

I've always been curious how Wing Chung would do against a good kicking style MA, using hit-and-run style tactics. If the kicker kept ambushing with leg kicks then retreating back out of range it could be hard for the W.C to contest with a more fixed stance. But if the WC guy closed the distance it could be all over

At some point the WC guy has to close the gap and end the kickers strength, which is his legs. When the opportunity presents itself.. remove his ball and socket. Of course easier said than done but if skilled, should be possible. I was never in this situation but i'm just thinking about your statements.

 

[StormShadow]

Just extending off some of the above points that Bruce Lee really wasnt something special, as far as his proficiency went. Also, i kinda dislike his existence for having people associate a certain quote with him which has nothing to do with him

which quote? Be like water?

 

[StormShadow]

I've wondered this same thing. If Bruce Lee had never became a movie star, would he have gone on to become the next "Yip Man"?

Or is the fact that he was a movie star, that he is given more credit than he deserves; and would have been just another (very good) WC man were it not for his notoriety.

So much of what BL espoused were restatements of WC ideas and concepts. Had he continued in the art and had the opportunity to delve deeper into it, perhaps the WC world would have had a major metamorphosis....but then again, without his notoriety, WC would most likely have stayed a relatively obscure fighting method and no one would have much noticed anyway.

Alot of jkd was lifted out of wing chun. With arms techniques, instead of deflection he uses trapping. I personally believe the wing chun approach is better and more efficient in deflecting arm attacks. I was somewhat puzzled why bruce went with trapping honestly as it requires more work and strength than using deflection. Jkd also focuses on lower leg kicks as higher kicks are a hazard. Jkd also does use some deflection where you hit and deflect simultaneously. The difference is jkd also includes a ground game but the name of the game is still get off the ground if you can just as in wing chun. As you know chi soa is also apart of jkd to obtain precision in "feeling" your opponent. More was also lifted out of wing chun. Who knows though, with BL's natural ability he likely could've went on to surpass Yip Man in overall skill if he kept with it. This might be considered a sac-religious statement but i'm j/s.

 

[Cyriacus]

In the clip.. he was demonstrating punching power. Have you ever moved a heavy bag liked that before with hooks and straight punches? He was quite phenomenal actually. Super athletic, speed, pound for pound strength and IQ.

...yes, actually. I have. I also sprained my wrist from hittng a heavy bag when it comes swinging back towards me as a result.
Now go look up some videos of people thwacking heavy bags and try to tell me hes something phenomenal.

which quote? Be like water?

Read my signature

 

[yak sao]

I've always been curious how Wing Chung would do against a good kicking style MA, using hit-and-run style tactics. If the kicker kept ambushing with leg kicks then retreating back out of range it could be hard for the W.C to contest with a more fixed stance. But if the WC guy closed the distance it could be all over

WC has very active footwork, despite what is shown on youtube. What you won't (or at least shouldn't) see a WC man do is dance around wasting a lot of energy. The footwork while very active, is, like the hands of WC, very economical.
Against a kicker, a good WC fighter should not let the kicker go back out of range. Either the WC man will shut down the kicker before the kick has had a chance to generate, or at the very least, will follow the opponent's leg in as it's retracted and stay on top of him preventing another kick from being launched.

 

[StormShadow]

...yes, actually. I have. I also sprained my wrist from hittng a heavy bag when it comes swinging back towards me as a result.
Now go look up some videos of people thwacking heavy bags and try to tell me hes something phenomenal.



Read my signature

Bruce Lee was a phenomenal martial artist. Don't you believe those then watched, talked, disliked him would have said as much on the contrary? It is not like he was never tested. He actually had fights where he used his skill. And not only that but went on to train other skillful individuals.

 

[StormShadow]

WC has very active footwork, despite what is shown on youtube. What you won't (or at least shouldn't) see a WC man do is dance around wasting a lot of energy. The footwork while very active, is, like the hands of WC, very economical.
Against a kicker, a good WC fighter should not let the kicker go back out of range. Either the WC man will shut down the kicker before the kick has had a chance to generate, or at the very least, will follow the opponent's leg in as it's retracted and stay on top of him preventing another kick from being launched.

lol yea youtube does not promote WC well by any means. Anyone aspiring to take up WC to see if the art can be effective should not look to youtube as a source. I remember seeing some tournment in NYC that placed different schools and different styles against one another. It was a very uncharacteristic tournament for what you would hope are quality schools. A lot of disrespect between schools, not very honorable. A TKD guy fought a Moy Yat WC guy and basically made the WC look silly. The WC could not close any gaps, no kick intercepts, little to no deflection, just not a very good depiction of WC for the world to see at all.

 

[Cyriacus]

Bruce Lee was a phenomenal martial artist. Don't you believe those then watched, talked, disliked him would have said as much on the contrary? It is not like he was never tested. He actually had fights where he used his skill. And not only that but went on to train other skillful individuals.

The same could be said of anyone with a good track record. But hey, if this is your system of measurement then Mike Tyson > Bruce Lee.
So, make a list of all the things thatre so phenomenal about him. Id seriously like to know.