Disappointment

[ave_turuta]

Dear M.A. folks,

I am not new in the forums, but thought of sending everyone a big heeeeeeello from Spain, where we have finally settled. I must say, I am a little disappointed at the way many MA schools are run here, and would like to know if any of you have had similar experiences abroad. In my US tkd school, training was taken very, very seriously. I could go train any day of the week except sundays for a minimum of 2 hours, and of course I could always arrive early to the class and stay late if I wanted to practice by myself. In Spain, I have already visited three tkd schools, and I can only say my disappointment is... well, great.

To begin with, classes stop in june and do not commence again until... the beginning of october! I am not speaking of some dinky gym, but of a school run by a medalist in Olympic tkd!!! On top of that, when I tried joining this particular school, I introduced myself and talked about my lineage in the M.A. (as I thought it´s customary when you are transferring schools). Even though I did this in a very polite and modest manner, not only was I looked at suspiciously, but the master in charge refused to allow me to attend one lesson and instead demanded that I pay a full month in advance. To make things worse, this school offered tkd classes.... 2 HOURS A WEEK. I left the school dumbfounded: you have to be kidding me, I thought. The second school I tried joining was similar: only two hours a week, for the same ridiculous price (almost 40 euro a month, which is 50 US dollars).

I have finally joined a smaller school run by a young teacher who seems very enthusiastic and who was very kind in allowing me to practice there one day, was interested in what I had learnt, etc. But again, I was quite shocked at the lack of discipline: students do not bow in or out of the dojang; we did not bow to the teacher, nor to one another (!) and everybody seemed to be pretty comfortable wearing a T-shirt for practice instead of a proper dobok (one student was wearing a blackneck dobok... but he was wearing a green belt). I know this may sound quite silly and even naive, but coming from a school where discipline and respect where emphasized to a high degree (from courtesy towards the instructor and one another, to the cleanliness of our attire and proper attitude in the dojang) this was very shocking to me... and the thing is, all the schools I have visited work this way! Has your experience been similar outside the US? Are there schools like this in the US, and if so, what is your opinion? Are things like discipline, respect, cleanliness, proper attire and other things so unimportant as to deserve being wiped out of the dojang like this? :idunno: Or am I just a boring "traditionalist"?

The thing is, I live in a medium-sized town and this is my only chance at continuing with my M.A. training. Even if it´s under these conditions, I would not like to stop practicing, and I will try to find a better school once I move closer to one of the big cities. So, I will not quit because (a) I enjoy my practice, and (b) I promised myself not to quit whatever the circumstances. Regardless, my first encounter with the discipline of tkd in Spain has been highly disappointing...

Peace to all,
A.T. :asian:

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Congratulations on your perseverance. I'm sorry that you can't find equivalent training there.

One thing to consider is that perhaps "Karate for Kids" hasn't caught on in Spain yet to the degree that it has in the States. Most studio owners, particularly those open 5-6 days a week for classes, pay their bills from revenue generated from tots and teens. Also, many TKD classes are highly traditional and perhaps that tradition hasn't planted itself so firmly in the area you've relocated to. The schools you describe sound like most of the nontraditional, noncommercial dojos I've been exposed to - the complete opposite of the large association and federation schools.

If you can get some decent instruction to tide you over until you find a good school - go for it. A year of one day a week in class is preferable to a year of no classes. You many not improve at the rate you have in the US, but at least you won't go backwards. Also, try to pick up a really good instructional video on the techniques you've already learned and use them to self-correct. While it is true that you can't realistically "learn" an art from a DVD - you can add to your repertoire and refresh what you already know.

 

[Brother John]

I have finally joined a smaller school

I was quite shocked at the lack of discipline:
students do not bow in or out of the dojang;
we did not bow to the teacher, nor to one another (!) and
everybody seemed to be pretty comfortable wearing a T-shirt for practice instead of a proper dobok
this was very shocking to me...

Are things like discipline, respect, cleanliness, proper attire and other things so unimportant as to deserve being wiped out of the dojang like this? :idunno: Or am I just a boring "traditionalist"?

The thing is, I live in a medium-sized town and this is my only chance at continuing with my M.A. training. Even if it´s under these conditions, I would not like to stop practicing, and I will try to find a better school once I move closer to one of the big cities.

Really, you aren't describing a school that has a "Lack of discipline" OR "lack of respect", but one that is light on "Formality"...that's pretty much all.
Many schools rely on the traditional formalities like the symbolic importance of the uniform, bowing in & out of the school, using titles that originate in the language indigeonis (sp??) to the country of that arts origin (in your case, Korean)...etc. But are these ESSENTIAL to "Discipline" and "Respect"???
By no means. You can have TONS of both discipline and respect without ANY of these formalities being exhibited!
Something to think about.

If you like the martial arts for it's "asian culture"...which is just fine then you really should continue to seek out a school that practices these traditional formalities that you enjoy. BUT: if "Tradition" isn't really the key focus of YOUR martial arts pursuit.....then you might try to broaden the parameters of what you see as exhibiting "respect" and "Discipline".

Your Brother
John

 

[terryl965]

ave_turuta, I agre with brother John if the culture is what you woulg like then seek and find. One should be happy where and how they train no-matter what style they choose.
Terry

 

[TonyM.]

You could check out any YMAA classes. I know they have them in Spain. Good long fist, white crane and tai chi.

 

[kempoguy71]

I trained for about eight years in Northern Europe (TKD, Judo and Karate) and we generally paid in 6 - 12 week increments (up front). I also think it's important to note that Karate / TKD schools in many areas of Europe are not run commercially, rather it is taught as a 'club' and often follow the 'school year'. None of the schools I attended was of a 'commercial' variety and practice 2 - 4 times per week...

Regarding the discipline and such, all of the schools I've visited and been a member of have always taken training seriously... with proper respect and discipline (including the formalities), so I think it just depends on the teacher/school. Having said that, I agree with Brother John that having / not using proper formalities does not relate to skill...
KG

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

Personally, I'm with A. T. about being a traditionalist. I like the formal class. However, just because the Spanish classes aren't formal doesn't mean they lack discipline. My husband is the most disciplined martial artist I know and he doesn't do the bowing and dobok wearing in his classes. I, however, being first taught in a traditional TKD class, like tradition over none. I think following tradition and formality is merely a preference of the teacher, but it doesn't show lack of discipline. I also think too much discipline can be bad. Discipline sometimes involves strictness, which could lead to rigidity in fighting, but we do all need some discipline.

 

[arnisador]

Ah, the traditional long European sumer vacation! They were in the news recently:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4316806.stm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9609445/

 

[Loki]

Sorry to hear about training in Spain...

All I can do is say that it's similar here. We train twice a week (for $33 a month). We don't train in an actual dojo (I know of two in the country), but rather in the local sports center, called a matnas. These matnasim are spread throughout the country, offering various after school classes, both sports-related and not, some of which are martial arts classes. The vast majority of practitioners in all these classes are kids, it's illegal to work during the weekend, the rented space isn't available all week long, and owning a dojo is very expensive, so the idea of training any day of the week is a distant dream.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I was pretty impressed with the Tae Kwon Do I saw in Denmark last year. Their system is nationalized...the government pays for the training. I've heard they're cutting back on that subsidization, but I think the quality will stay high regardless.

By the way, if you get a chance to go to the Danish Tae Kwon Do camp next spring...DO IT. We ran into a handful of people from Spain.

Sorry to hear its so bad in your area.


Regards,


Steve

 

[mantis]

Dear M.A. folks,

I am not new in the forums, but thought of sending everyone a big heeeeeeello from Spain, where we have finally settled. I must say, I am a little disappointed at the way many MA schools are run here, and would like to know if any of you have had similar experiences abroad. In my US tkd school, training was taken very, very seriously. I could go train any day of the week except sundays for a minimum of 2 hours, and of course I could always arrive early to the class and stay late if I wanted to practice by myself. In Spain, I have already visited three tkd schools, and I can only say my disappointment is... well, great.

To begin with, classes stop in june and do not commence again until... the beginning of october! I am not speaking of some dinky gym, but of a school run by a medalist in Olympic tkd!!! On top of that, when I tried joining this particular school, I introduced myself and talked about my lineage in the M.A. (as I thought it´s customary when you are transferring schools). Even though I did this in a very polite and modest manner, not only was I looked at suspiciously, but the master in charge refused to allow me to attend one lesson and instead demanded that I pay a full month in advance. To make things worse, this school offered tkd classes.... 2 HOURS A WEEK. I left the school dumbfounded: you have to be kidding me, I thought. The second school I tried joining was similar: only two hours a week, for the same ridiculous price (almost 40 euro a month, which is 50 US dollars).

I have finally joined a smaller school run by a young teacher who seems very enthusiastic and who was very kind in allowing me to practice there one day, was interested in what I had learnt, etc. But again, I was quite shocked at the lack of discipline: students do not bow in or out of the dojang; we did not bow to the teacher, nor to one another (!) and everybody seemed to be pretty comfortable wearing a T-shirt for practice instead of a proper dobok (one student was wearing a blackneck dobok... but he was wearing a green belt). I know this may sound quite silly and even naive, but coming from a school where discipline and respect where emphasized to a high degree (from courtesy towards the instructor and one another, to the cleanliness of our attire and proper attitude in the dojang) this was very shocking to me... and the thing is, all the schools I have visited work this way! Has your experience been similar outside the US? Are there schools like this in the US, and if so, what is your opinion? Are things like discipline, respect, cleanliness, proper attire and other things so unimportant as to deserve being wiped out of the dojang like this? :idunno: Or am I just a boring "traditionalist"?

The thing is, I live in a medium-sized town and this is my only chance at continuing with my M.A. training. Even if it´s under these conditions, I would not like to stop practicing, and I will try to find a better school once I move closer to one of the big cities. So, I will not quit because (a) I enjoy my practice, and (b) I promised myself not to quit whatever the circumstances. Regardless, my first encounter with the discipline of tkd in Spain has been highly disappointing...

Peace to all,
A.T. :asian:

ouch.. that is disappointing actually...
i wouldnt join classes like that, instead i would think of changing my MA. maybe you might find something else that offers you what you want.
i trained for 2 years in a shotokan school and a TKD school somewhere in the middle east where we only got like 3 hours of practice a week (we wouldnt want more, it was torture!) but on the other hand we were beaten with a tree trunk if i didnt bow properly. the same tree trunk that he hit us to strengthen our abs, shoulders and legs. i mean the masters there do not give you a break!
again, i would look for ANY other martial art school that has the "essential" requirements of discipline at least.
good luck

 

[Flying Crane]

You may need to start to rely on yourself more. If you feel you can get something good from these schools, even if it is not quite what you would like, then join, but in the meantime, look for ways to continue your training by yourself, if actual classtime is limited. It looks like it is time to "own" your art, make it belong to you, direct yourself in your development. Don't think you need to rely on others for progression. You know what you have learned, practice practice practice and make it stronger.

 

[Epson]

I agree, spain seems pretty warm. Train on your own, if you can of coarse.