Differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?

[Ceicei]

I had a non-martial arts friend ask me this question: "What are the differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?" Since I don't study Judo or Jiu-Jitsu (I study American Kenpo), I don't have good answers. Your assistance in replies would be appreciated.

Thank you,

- Ceicei

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Judo is a sportive version of Jujutsu. Jujutsu/Taijutsu were the main combative empty-hand arts of Japan for many moons. Judo founder, Jigoro Kano (in a nutshell) pared the really lethal stuff from the battlefields out so they could have competitions. Hit some snags around the 2nd world war, but worked through them.

GENERALLY, Judo concentrates more on gaining points by tossing a guy through the air or pinning him to the ground, whereas jujutsu focuses more on twisting joint complexes and kinetic chains in directions they weren't really meant to go, or choking the poor guy until he turns funny colors and starts to smell bad. They each have a bit of the other (i.e., Judo has joint manipulations and jujutsu has throws & pins), but the primary difference between them is the "intent" or "focus", as well as complementary training methods.

Hope it helps,

D.

 

[Ceicei]

So they aren't two really separate martial arts? Are they considered generally the same except for training approaches and an emphasis on certain moves?

- Ceicei

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

So they aren't two really separate martial arts? Are they considered generally the same except for training approaches and an emphasis on certain moves?

- Ceicei

They are considered two (or more?) completely different martial arts. Jujutsu schools are plentiful in Japanese history...kinda like the generic use of the word "karate" or "car"; the next thing you have to do is pare down to "what kind of car? Ford? Toyota? What model of car...Camry? Celica?".

Jujutsu, in Japanese, refers to the martial traditions as related to combat. The "jutsu" suffix usually indicates something akin to "...pragmatic skill of...". The "do" suffix generally relates to an exercise or skill or path one studies or undertakes for the purpose of personal development, spiritual attainment, or for hobbies' sake. "Ju jutsu" would be an art about the combat applications of joint entanglements, take-downs, chokes, throws, control holds, weapons disarms (i.e., He has a sword; I don't...now what?). Ju do would refer to a path to character development of body and mind, through the rigorous practice of a standardized cirriculum set forth by judo founder, Jigoro Kano. (many brands of jujutsu; one brand of judo...at least originally).

Some of the old-school jujutsu guys considered judo to be the watered down McDojo version of jujutsu; other old-school adherents magnetized towards it, believing it represented a logical categorization and amalgamation of techniques widely found in most jujutsu disciplines.

To start judo, Kano -- himself an accomplished jujutsu practitioner -- picked the brains of many jujutsu old-guard guys. Some of the early day pictures from the turn of the century show a young kano posing with a "who's who" of Japanese jujutsu. Some of them stayed around to blend in with the Kodokan (the building, and subsequently the organization, Kano started for housing judo), while others in the old pics returned to their jujutsu roots. Some later guys started in judo, then split the kodokan to find oldsters still teaching jujutsu.

Tai-jutsu, loosely translated, means "the skill of using your body"...the "in combat" aspect is implied by the context and common usage of the word. Some of the old JJ guys used this word, instead of jujutsu, each according to their own lineage/tradition. Even before the introduction of ninja arts into mainstream U.S. MA scene (they also use the phrase taijutsu to refer to their bare-hand fighting systems), some of the schools that started as Judo, but looked to leave their sport roots behind and dedicate themselves to combat-focused training changed their names back to taijutsu (more in Europe & Africa, then the US...most judo players on this side of the pond went back to calling it jujutsu if they opted out of the judo world).

Ideally (and I use the word loosely, since now there are multiple judo federations/associations), there would be one brand of Judo, with everybody the world over doing the same thing. Jujutsu, on the other hand, would be 20 different guys from 20 different lineages, taking 20+ different approaches to dealing with a common attack (like, say, a wrist-grab).

Regards,

Dave

 

[Ceicei]

Thank you very much for your explanation. You have helped me to understand more and will share your information with my friend. I suspect he is considering the possibility of taking up one or the other as his potential martial art. I learned a lot too!

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

I was correct, my friend is thinking about taking either jujutsu or judo. Right now, he is eyeing an eight week community education (run by the local jr college) judo class that goes one hour per week to see if he likes it. He will probably look into a jujutsu class after he tries out the judo.

However, he doesn't want to go to the judo class alone (since he has absolutely no martial arts experience of any kind), and wants me to go with him. He feels kind of nervous.

The instructor of that class runs one of the schools that belong to a well known martial arts chain, so I am guessing the instructor is much more than just adequate. I haven't decided whether to go along with him, but he does need some morale support. I realize that this class is a very short, probably a very basic version (eight hours worth) of their curriculum and designed to make it enjoyable for a person to possibly sign up with their school.

Generally, what can both of us expect? For me specifically, would I potentially encounter any confusion if I go in there with my American Kenpo background?

Thank you again in advance for any replies.

- Ceicei

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I was correct, my friend is thinking about taking either jujutsu or judo. Right now, he is eyeing an eight week community education (run by the local jr college) judo class that goes one hour per week to see if he likes it. He will probably look into a jujutsu class after he tries out the judo.

However, he doesn't want to go to the judo class alone (since he has absolutely no martial arts experience of any kind), and wants me to go with him. He feels kind of nervous.

The instructor of that class runs one of the schools that belong to a well known martial arts chain, so I am guessing the instructor is much more than just adequate. I haven't decided whether to go along with him, but he does need some morale support. I realize that this class is a very short, probably a very basic version (eight hours worth) of their curriculum and designed to make it enjoyable for a person to possibly sign up with their school.

Generally, what can both of us expect? For me specifically, would I potentially encounter any confusion if I go in there with my American Kenpo background?

Thank you again in advance for any replies.

- Ceicei

If it's a judo intro, you could expect some skills that would probably be quite complementary to your kenpo. You could expect some breakfalls training (how to land on the ground without getting maimed), a couple of simple throws, and probably some drills for simple defense items such as how to squirm out of frontal choke assaults, wristgrabs, and the like. Since grappling has taken off in the last 15 years, there may even be some fundamentals of grappling. In judo, the 1st coiuple lessons usually look like some pins and holds, how to get and keep them, and some tips on how to get out of them. Sounds fun.

Shouldn't interfere with your kenpo training. There is a guy named David German who was one of Mr. Parkers blacks from the days of yore; he's done quite a nice job of training judo & misc. ground/grappling skills w/o diminishing his kenpo "presence".

If you go, let me know whatcha think!

Dave

 

[Ceicei]

I decided to sign up for "Intro to Judo" community ed. class, but my friend is still kind of intimidated about going. He just found out the instructor is a FEMALE 5th dan. I pointed out that if she is 5th dan, that generally means she knows her stuff well.

I think it's ironic that he had been trying to persuade me to go with him; now our roles are switched, I'm trying to persuade him to stick with his plan. I pointed out to him that he doesn't have to start out with Judo. There are a lot of other styles out there he could try. Since he had been thinking about Jujutsu too, I suggested he can try that one out instead. He says he will, if I go with him. :idunno:

Anyway, I'll let you know how first day with Judo class goes.

- Ceicei

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I decided to sign up for "Intro to Judo" community ed. class, but my friend is still kind of intimidated about going. He just found out the instructor is a FEMALE 5th dan. I pointed out that if she is 5th dan, that generally means she knows her stuff well.

I think it's ironic that he had been trying to persuade me to go with him; now our roles are switched, I'm trying to persuade him to stick with his plan. I pointed out to him that he doesn't have to start out with Judo. There are a lot of other styles out there he could try. Since he had been thinking about Jujutsu too, I suggested he can try that one out instead. He says he will, if I go with him. :idunno:

Anyway, I'll let you know how first day with Judo class goes.

- Ceicei

If it's just about her being female, try to talk him in to attending just the 1st couple classes (leaving him an out). When he gets there, and she needs a demo dummy, let him know that reservations are best confirmed or denied by experience, and that feeling is believing. After she dumps him onto the mat a couple times via superior technique, he may very well have a change of mind. Esp if he's a big guy... 2 things happen: 1) it's humbling. 2) the male ego says, "wow, if she could do that then just think about what I -- the mighty male -- could do with the same technology!".

Have fun!

D.

 

[Gaston]

As my most resent training has been as a competitive judoka for the past 12 yrs. I have seen many clubs and their styles differ greatly. I have found that a person’s impression of Judo, Jiu-Jitsu or any similar art forms can be greatly influenced by the sensei. Some schools are primarily interested in training within the Olympic rules purely for the "sport". They never teach or train in any way they can't duplicate in a tournament. Other dojos (like ours lucky me) are interested in perfecting all possible techniques and encourage creativity for mutual improvement. Our Sensei is more than happy to allow us to demonstrate new moves even if they ""just came to us". Other Schools tend to border on the MMA route. Their members tend to unnecessarily injure each other in "ego matches". Being able to state the difference between two similar arts would be like saying Judo is ______ and no one disagreeing with you.

 

[Ceicei]

If it's a judo intro, you could expect some skills that would probably be quite complementary to your kenpo. You could expect some breakfalls training (how to land on the ground without getting maimed), a couple of simple throws, and probably some drills for simple defense items such as how to squirm out of frontal choke assaults, wristgrabs, and the like. Since grappling has taken off in the last 15 years, there may even be some fundamentals of grappling. In judo, the 1st coiuple lessons usually look like some pins and holds, how to get and keep them, and some tips on how to get out of them. Sounds fun.

Shouldn't interfere with your kenpo training. There is a guy named David German who was one of Mr. Parkers blacks from the days of yore; he's done quite a nice job of training judo & misc. ground/grappling skills w/o diminishing his kenpo "presence".

If you go, let me know whatcha think!

Dave

Attended my first class today. I was a tad late because I went to the wrong town and realized their dojang was in the next town (the two towns blend together that the only way to know there's a difference is seeing a sign between them and street names are the same for both).

When I got there, I saw ten students on the mat doing drills. they did "ninja rolls" or forward rolls. Nice to see something familiar. I'm sure they have a different name for that. They were all yellow belts with a word written on one end in black marker (starts with the letter H and I think ended with yi or gi. The word is identical for all of them, so I am guessing it is probably the name of a rank??? They wore tan colored, very long judogi. I had worn my heavyweight blue karate gi as the instructor said I could (since it is only an 8 week community ed class). I wore my white belt as I didn't feel comfortable wearing my green kenpo belt. I found out later I was the only beginner who signed up. My friend chickened out.

The instructor motioned me to just join in. By the time I got into line, I only did one ninja roll before they switched to front breakfalls. Very odd. It reminded me of someone falling and almost going splat, but landing on only the forearms and the balls of their feet in a splayed fashion. New type of breakfall for me. Unfortunately, in attempting to follow along, I hyperextended my right big toe . Next, we did back breakfalls (also not new), and side breakfalls (different than how I learned them). We then had to do a front breakfall and only crawl on arms and balls of feet all the way across the mat, followed by umm, not sure what it's called, but going on the side like a breakfall, then switching to the other side while moving forward across the mat, kind of snaking our way across.

Once done with these drills, we practiced five different kinds of pins. The first one had me sitting next to my partner right front leg forward and the left leg bent back. My right hand wraps around her neck holding her collar and my left hand goes under and behind her right arm meet to my right hand. I put my torso on her and squeeze tightly while my partner tries to get out. Second pin I learned was similar to the first, except my right leg is bent at the knee. My partner's right arm, however, is on the right side of my head and pinned under my torso. Third pin I learned was kneeling above her head, hooking my hands under her to grasp her belt, pulling her up towards my stomach, then laying down on top of her with my legs out. Fourth pin was kneeling by her side, wrapping my right arm behind her left leg to grasp her belt, and my left arm grasping her back collar, and putting my weight on her. The last pin I learned was kneeling by her head, wrapping my right arm around her right arm (like a snake) and grasping her collar, my left arm goes palm up behind her back, pulling her up towards me, and laying my torso upon her.

I learned some sweeps also, stepping to the outside and sweeping. Another sweep is stepping inside between her legs and hooking my leg behind either of her knees. After these drills, they had matches. Since I was the only beginner and all the others were one year yellow belts, I didn't think the instructor would put me in a match, but she did. We had a struggle for about five minutes (my partner says I'm extemely strong which made it challenging for her :idunno: Maybe my weightlifting work at my dojo paid off). Eventually, her skill won out as she finally swept me, but we had a tussle trying to pin (I spent most of the time trying to avoid her pins and couldn't put any pin on her .) She finally was able to pin me.

The instructor congratulated me for doing really well, but said I needed to relax more (when we were holding on to each other at the beginning of my match, I was avoiding her feet like crazy). She introduced me to the rest of the class and told them I was a green belt in Kempo (I told her afterwards it is actually American Kenpo). All in all, it was a very tough workout and a good experience.

I just wish I knew all the names of these moves. It's all so foreign to me.

- Ceicei

 

[Gaston]

Ah Yes, swimming in uncharted waters :jaws:

The terminology is often confusing at first. I will give the translations linked to your description so you will know the technique (Waza) I am referring to. I am in no means mocking you; we were all there at one time, unless you speak perfect Japanese. To start with migi is right and hidari is left. Ukemi-Waza or falling techniques are broken into 1. Ushiro ukemi (back break falls) 2. Yoko ukemi (side break falls) 3. Mae ukemi (front break fall or “falling and almost going splat, but landing on only the forearms and the balls of their feet in a splayed fashion” “always turn your head right or left”) sorry about your toe. 4. Mae-mawari-ukemi (“ninja rolls” or forward tumbling break fall)



I’m not sure what was on their belt, perhaps a brand name? The rank for Yellow translated is (Gokyu 5th kyu). The “kind of snaking our way across the floor thing” is commonly called shrimping. If you’re moving head first it is used to withdraw your lower body from under your opponent. The “crawling on arms and balls of feet” (common name is G.I Joes).

“Different kinds of pins” are classified as katame-waza (grappling techniques) sub category osae-komi-waza (hold-down techniques), The main point with all hold-down techniques is opposing directions of force. I’ll describe Hon Kesa Gatame (basic sash hold) because except for the “hands together comment, and gabbing the collar.” These two might indicate changing Hon to Makura, and basic to pillow. “The first one had me sitting next to my partner right front leg forward and the left leg bent back.” #1. Position your right armpit to their right arm pit, legs just as you stated, and remain perpendicular and low. “My right hand wraps around her neck holding her collar” #2. Press their collar (Eri) straight to the floor. “My left hand goes under and behind her right arm meet to my right hand.” #3. Here is we again enter the grey area. I will go with Hon or basic sash hold, trap instead their forearm under your arm deeply, and grab the underside of their sleeve (Sode) near armpit. #4. Leverage them tight against you by prying up with your hand and down with your armpit and slightly rotating away from that arm. Oppose that by combining #2 along with driving with your feet and pinning them to the floor like a bug through their armpit “I put my torso on her and squeeze tightly while my partner tries to get out.” #5. Now their feeling the pressure.





Ummmm? Sounds sort of like Kata Gatame (shoulder hold) but more detail would help. For example are you trying to apply pressure similar to a triangle choke (Sankaku jime), but with the arms? Are you face up or down at the hips? “Second pin I learned was similar to the first, except my right leg is bent at the knee. My partner's right arm, however, is on the right side of my head and pinned under my torso.”



Kami shiho gatame (Upper four-cornered hold) or “Third pin I learned was kneeling above her head, hooking my hands under her to grasp her belt, pulling her up towards my stomach, then lying down on top of her with my legs out.” That sounds perfect, just one little tip. #1. Force their head to face one direction pressing with your abdomen. Now brace a little wider on that side because you know she will not attempt to roll out in the direction that endangers her own neck. Forgive me a cruel chuckle, sorry.



Kuzure kami shiho gatame (modified upper four-cornered hold) “The last pin I learned was kneeling by her head, wrapping my right arm around her right arm (like a snake) and grasping her collar, my left arm goes palm up behind her back, pulling her up towards me, and laying my torso upon her.” Great job, same tip as above make sure you force their face away from the arm you are wrapping.



Yoko shiho gatame (side four-cornered hold) “Fourth pin was kneeling by her right side, wrapping my right arm behind her left leg to grasp her belt.” #1. Pry her towards you by pressing down with your right shoulder and up with your right hand. “My left arm grasps her back collar, and putting my weight on her.” #2. Left hand under head gripping at the armpit, now leverage (rotate) her head away from you. This encourages her not to struggle (shrimp) to hard. Counter technique: left leg over your head forcing you down or turning towards you, thus the head control. So sorry are you stuck lol.


In Nage-waza (throwing techniques) a small or minor technique is referred to as Ko in this case like crossing your feet. A large or major technique is referred to as O in this case like your feet moving away from one another.
”I learned some sweeps, also, stepping to the outside and sweeping” Major Outer Reaping (Osoto Gari). #1. Lock your hand holding their sleeve to your same hip hard. #2. Then squat slightly and watch their balance disappear, as they try to hold your weight with one hand. “Another sweep is stepping inside between her legs and hooking my leg behind either of her knees” (preferably clipping the heel). ”After these drills, they had matches. Since I was the only beginner and all the others were one year yellow belts, I didn't think the instructor would put me in a match, but she did. We had a struggle for about five minutes (my partner says I'm extremely strong which made it challenging for her Maybe my weightlifting work at my dojo paid off). Eventually, her skill won out as she finally swept me, but we had a tussle trying to pin (I spent most of the time trying to avoid her pins and couldn't put any pin on her .) She finally was able to pin me.

The instructor congratulated me for doing really well, but said I needed to relax more (when we were holding on to each other at the beginning of my match, I was avoiding her feet like crazy). She introduced me to the rest of the class and told them I was a green belt in Kempo (I told her afterwards it is actually American Kenpo). All in all, it was a very tough workout and a good experience.

I just wish I knew all the names of these moves. It's all so foreign to me.

Welcome to the world of grappling (Judo) I hope this helps.

 

[arnisador]

Check out http://www.judoinfo.com for lots of info. on Judo. It's an excellent resource.

 

[Cobra]

Isn't Jiu-Jitsu more effective than judo in a street fight since judo is to result of taking all the "dangerous" locks and attacks out?

 

[arnisador]

The counterargument is that you can train your Judo techniques full-force against a resisting opponent, so what you do know you know better.

 

[loki09789]

I had a non-martial arts friend ask me this question: "What are the differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?" Since I don't study Judo or Jiu-Jitsu (I study American Kenpo), I don't have good answers. Your assistance in replies would be appreciated.

Thank you,

- Ceicei

With the volume of posts, I am pretty sure this has been said already but:

Judo: Sport variation
JiuJutsu: combat system

 

[Ceicei]

Second Judo class (my community ed class meets once a week for eight weeks).

I arrived to class on time, now that I learned where the dojang was located. There was a TKD class before mine that was running late, so we had to wait a bit.

Once we got started, the instructor had judo trivia. She gave us questions about judo history and terminology and the students gave answers. She did ask me a question and I was able to answer correctly, :uhyeah: thanks to Gaston and MartialTalk! If a student gives the wrong answer, the entire class had to do push ups.

After that, we did some drills and did a lot of forward roll breakfalls (mae-mawari-ukemi), increasing the heights by having us jump over various obstacles.

When through with the drills, the instructor came to me and asked what I wanted to do. I enjoy doing pins and I would like to do them, but mindful of the fact I hyperextended my big toe last week doing front breakfalls (mae-ukemi), I told her I needed more practice with all the breakfalls. She nodded and had one of her good students work with me doing that. It was pretty much all I did through the class time, practicing falls until it was time for randori.

In randori, I was paired with a much taller and stronger woman. She apparently had a lot more experience than the one from last week. She's very swift! She did a nage-waza on me that I hadn't seen before (I'm trying to locate what it is in my judo book), and quickly had me pinned tightly in a shoulder hold (kata-gatame). She did all that in less than a minute. :asian: Can't complain. I have a lot of learning to do.

After class ended, my instructor came over to talk. I had noticed that she wrote the terminology differently. She explained that they are the same, but it's different because of Japanese dialects. As proof, she pulled out four different Judo manuals and showed that even among these books, the writing isn't consistent. Some have the word zemp instead of mae, others have shiho instead of yoko.

At the last class, I mentioned to you that the students' yellow belts had a word written in black marker on them. I asked what the word meant, and was told it means "yellow". I thought yellow is "kiiro" and doesn't start with the letter "h", but I suppose it may be because of the dialect difference.

I enjoyed this class too, even though I got very sore from doing the breakfalls so much. :boing2: Gotta work those muscles!!

- Ceicei

 

[arnisador]

In Judo more than some other arts they do tend to pair people up with less regard to rank/experience. Well, it gives you a chance to learn I suppose!

Thanks for the update. It's always interesting to see how people view these arts. I study the closely related BJJ so it's interesting to me.

 

[auxprix]

Let me tell you though, arnisador, when you're first starting out it's a lot easier on you to spar with a higher ranking judoka than a beginner. The experienced fighters know how to throw properly, and not hurt you. When I was still a greenhorn, I was paired up with another whitebelt. He completed an ugly throw (for those in the know, I think it was a harai-goshi, but it was hard to tell) and almost broke my jaw by landing on my face. From that point on, I avoided fighting whitebelts for quite a while.

 

[arnisador]

Good point, and I agree. Still, it can be frustrating when you actually are playing, not practicing!