Demonstration of effects from a strike to carotid sinus (St - 9) - Video

[RoninPimp]

Tone is everyting. The tone of your request came accross the acreen as abrupt and challenging, and not as a respectful request for back up information.

Think about the knowledge base you have accumulated in life. Got references in your back pocket or on the tip of your tongue to support every little thing you know or believe?

I had to learn about the carotid bulb thing in Chiropractic college; as part of EMT training; and again for other reasons. I could take a day to go to my storage space, dig out the text that accompanied the coursework, look in the back for the references, then go to the science library at the nearest university with a med school in it to try and find the original source material so I could post a reference for you. But why? Is that the best use of my day, just so I can say, "nyah-nyah, I told you so?".

No. It's a petty request, which if thought out with any respect for the other party, would not have been made, in light of the ridiculous path necessary for a response. Not having a snappy reference for you to look up, which you wouldn't do anyway, don't make it not so. The only people who would have any reasonable expectation around hunting down a reference would be authors of a paper or book on the anatomy, physiology, examination and clinical relevance of the critter in question. Do you happen to be writing a medical textbook, that we could help you by providing a citation which you otherwise cannot locate?

Regards,

Dave

-Tone? On an internet board? LOL! Requesting a reason for why you believe something makes perfect sense to me...IF discussion rather than preaching is your goal...

 

[shesulsa]

-Tone? On an internet board?

At least you can read. Yes, tone. Do you talk to everyone like this? Strangers in the street?

 

[BlackSheep]

These articles support the points that Dr. Dave and I have made.

http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/c...act/265/3/H918
http://intl-ajpheart.physiology.org/...ct/257/5/H1389

They are both from reputable sources.

Thanks

Give me some time to study the articles and I’ll get back to you.

Thanks again upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

These articles support the points that Dr. Dave and I have made.

http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/265/3/H918
http://intl-ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/257/5/H1389

They are both from reputable sources.

With that being said, if this point can be lightly massaged to lower blood pressure to the brain and cause unconsciousness, I think that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that when this point is struck, it would have the same or far greater effect.

upnorthkyosa

How about we take a look at the sources and discuss them? I think that this information can make use think differently about many techniques. Lapel chokes, for instance, are pushing right on these points. Perhaps this baroreflex is what is putting people out and not the commonly held "choking" explanation.

 

[Makalakumu]

For some reason, the URLs I posted aren't working. They worked before. Try these.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Carotid+Sinus+used+to+lower+blood+pressure&btnG=Google+Search

This inquiry turns up a lot of articles on this subject. I only picked two of them. Check them out.

 

[RoninPimp]

At least you can read. Yes, tone. Do you talk to everyone like this? Strangers in the street?

-Pretty much, and I don't have to worry about spelling

 

[shesulsa]

-Pretty much, and I don't have to worry about spelling

Well, then I guess you have all the need for street-tested fighting then, don'tcha? Must need it a lot.

 

[RoninPimp]

Well, then I guess you have all the need for street-tested fighting then, don'tcha? Must need it a lot.

-Not at all. Haven't been in a fight since I was a teen. Well except that one time....

 

[Makalakumu]

:-offtopic

I posted this earlier and it got buried, yet I think its important...

I think that this information can make use think differently about many techniques. Lapel chokes, for instance, are pushing right on these points. Perhaps this baroreflex is what is putting people out and not the commonly held "choking" explanation.

 

[RoninPimp]

I've read (on a Judo message board maybe?) that that is indeed the case. I don't have the medical knowlege to argue one way or the other. I'm just happy knowing chokes will put somebody to sleep.

 

[Makalakumu]

I've read (on a Judo message board maybe?) that that is indeed the case. I don't have the medical knowlege to argue one way or the other. I'm just happy knowing chokes will put somebody to sleep.

I've often wondered how my sensei could put me out with a "choke" and I never felt choked. This is a good explanation, I think.

It is also an important explanation. Striking this point is ubiquitous throughout TSD forms. See the move I'm posting below. Understanding what this is and how this works, really makes these techniques make more sense.

upnorthkyosa

 

[RoninPimp]

I was with you up until that video clip. That doesn't look related to fighting to me...

 

[BlackSheep]

For some reason, the URLs I posted aren't working. They worked before. Try these.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Carotid+Sinus+used+to+lower+blood+pressure&btnG=Google+Search

This inquiry turns up a lot of articles on this subject. I only picked two of them. Check them out.

Well I read about medical implants for lowering blood pressure but nothing about a KO in a fight. Except on an Erle Montaigue site and I don’t count that as a reputable medical site.

I’ve spent enough time looking for this and since the onus is on you to provide the proof for your claim, I’ll wait for your response.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

the first treatment performed in Namikoshi shiatsu (which is the only shiatsu recognized by the japanese government) is performed on the anterior cervical region along the medial side of the anterior fibres of the sternocleidomastoid. One of the reasons this area is focused on first is that it directly stimulates the carotid sinus and immediately lowers blood pressure, no hocus pocus, just a physiological fact.

 

[RoninPimp]

the first treatment performed in Namikoshi shiatsu (which is the only shiatsu recognized by the japanese government) is performed on the anterior cervical region along the medial side of the anterior fibres of the sternocleidomastoid. One of the reasons this area is focused on first is that it directly stimulates the carotid sinus and immediately lowers blood pressure, no hocus pocus, just a physiological fact.

-That's certainly interesting. Can you recommend a website with more info?

 

[Ceicei]

-That's certainly interesting. Can you recommend a website with more info?

I suggest you make a search on a reputable web search engine, such as Google. You can surely find the information to give you answers. The gentlemen upthread have given you several sources already.

- Ceicei

 

[Makalakumu]

Well I read about medical implants for lowering blood pressure but nothing about a KO in a fight. Except on an Erle Montaigue site and I don’t count that as a reputable medical site.

I’ve spent enough time looking for this and since the onus is on you to provide the proof for your claim, I’ll wait for your response.

If you are looking for a journal article that specifically spells out what you are looking for, then you may be waiting for a long time. Medicine is designed around helping people live through various events in their life, thus fighting is the antecedent of that type of thing.

Yet, I think the evidence is strong enough to suggest, to any reasonable person, that manipulation of the carotid sinus lowers blood pressure and that vigorous manipulation causes unconsciousness. It is a medical fact that the carotid sinus is a baroreceptor and the manipulation of this area has been tested extensively.

If you think that it is an unreasonable jump in logic to conclude that which I have deduced, then please present a well supported argument that explains your position.

 

[BlackSheep]

If you think that it is an unreasonable jump in logic to conclude that which I have deduced, then please present a well supported argument that explains your position.

It sounds reasonable but that’s not proof!

And since you’re making the claim, the burden of proof is yours.

If you can’t provide proof then you’re just making an unsubstantiated claim.

You could very well be right but why should anyone believe you?

 

[Makalakumu]

It sounds reasonable but that’s not proof!

And since you’re making the claim, the burden of proof is yours.

If you can’t provide proof then you’re just making an unsubstantiated claim.

You could very well be right but why should anyone believe you?

Proof isn't some magic that just poofs and something suddenly becomes proven. Often, little bits of evidence are used to slowly support a theory until it becomes "proven".

In this case, the logic is a slam dunk, IMO. When pressure is applied to a baroreceptor, certain effects on the body have been measured by the medical community. Thus, if one were to apply pressure in a real fight, either by striking or by pushing, one should get the same effect.

This video is "evidence" of that because of the location of the strike. Anyone who has ever had a lapel choke applied by a skilled practicioner and has immediately gone out has also experienced "evidence" that supports the above conclusion. Heck, the old junior high trick...the Space Monkey...is also evidence.

The reason I tried to switch the onus onto you earlier is because I'm curious as to whether or not you have evidence that would show that this explanation is invalid. If so, I'm all ears...

 

[BlackSheep]

This video is "evidence" of that because of the location of the strike.

That video would never be accepted as proof in a scientific peer review journal. The video wouldn’t even be considered proof in a court of law with its lower standards of proof.

This video is only proof to the PP people who see what they want to see. Kind of like letting Dillman do a no touch knock out on you and saying that it was real. LOL