Decline of CMA

[taekwonfool]

I am interested in CMA but people think that it is a waste of time.
I had the privilege of studying for 6 months until I was forced to move where a few kung fu joints exist.
I have my choice of 2 big wow and they both suck badly compared to where I was.
I went to one for free classes and the place was really crappy.
The Sifu offered very little if any useful correction to bad postures,etc.
The students were sloppy with a nice pair of black jog pants and a T-shirt with the school name on it of course.
Half of them came in street clothes and looked sloppy as crap.
The contracting was unbelieveable if you wanted a black belt you had to sign up for 24 months with a credit card at over $100 a month plus equipment costs.
Then the trick was the master did'nt teach everything and had special seminars for only $39.95 additional you could learn everything else.
It reminded me of a jerk off tv offer with a make a million type attitude.
They went to tournament in West Va. and got their heads knocked off by Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do artists.
I heard they were really bad and set the art back years by just being there.
I do traditional CMA at a local art center where the guy teaches for $12 a class and he is so much better.
The art has enhanced my Tae Kwon Do and made me very fast.
I'm a yellow belt with TKD but I can out move and go faster than the black belts.
I just wear them down by dodging and blocking then pound them when they are fatigued.
They respect the art now that I can demonstrate how it should be done and the second dan hates the blocks because the nail his best kicks.

 

[7starmantis]

Lately I've been thinking about this again. It does seem however that the MA stars of Hollywood are pretty much CMAist right now. I mean Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Mark Dacoscos, even in Kill Bill she was studying kung fu. The mainstream is hearing kung fu more I think, but no one really knows what it is. I'm shocked all the time when I talk to instructors of other systems who have been studying for 30 years and have no clue about kung fu. Just strange I think.


7sm

 

[loki09789]

Do you guys see a decline in CMA in general as far as interest by the general public? I'm not saying its a bad thing, but it seems people look at kung fu and most CMA as "magical" "fantasy" type arts forms that wouldn't work if put to the test. Anyone getting that feeling other than myself?


7sm

Good post 7*, I think the problem is partly do to action film enthusiasm. See the Matrix/the ONE or some other movie and then go to the local CMA school only to find that it isn't going to look like that and it isn't going to happen instantaneously....

CMA's tend to be less straight forward than JMA as well. They tend to be more 'exotic' looking and that can make them intimidating to non practitioners. You work hard in most CMA classes (relative to the family Karate center types of programs) and that weeds out the non hackers as well...

There may be a decline, but I don't know if it a bad thing to be on the floor with fewer dedicated students than a floor full of 'wanna bes.'

 

[7starmantis]

Good post 7*, I think the problem is partly do to action film enthusiasm. See the Matrix/the ONE or some other movie and then go to the local CMA school only to find that it isn't going to look like that and it isn't going to happen instantaneously....

CMA's tend to be less straight forward than JMA as well. They tend to be more 'exotic' looking and that can make them intimidating to non practitioners. You work hard in most CMA classes (relative to the family Karate center types of programs) and that weeds out the non hackers as well...

There may be a decline, but I don't know if it a bad thing to be on the floor with fewer dedicated students than a floor full of 'wanna bes.'

I can agree with that 100%. I talk to lots of people who come in the school because thye saw Kill Bill, or Matrix and want to learn that "stuff". I guess your right, the decline could be a good thing, but as a school owner, I couldn't imagine it to be very secure feeling.

7sm

 

[FasterthanDeath]

Let me say that when it comes to CMA here in Texas. We do have alot of schools and good programs. But alot of people are teaching the traditional way, or just forms. No self-defense, or combat applications. And when they do teach the combat applications, what kind are they teaching? Yes alot of people ask me everyday when they see a movie like Kill Bill or the matrix and ask me if I can teach them that. I tell them of course I can, but at what price? And when I mean price I mean how much time and effort are they willing to put into it. I teach for free now just private lessons out of my home. I teach them only the combat portion. Thats all they want to know. By reading that line right there I am sure that plenty of you fellow CMAist are outraged because thats not how it works. Well Thats how I was taught as a child. I did all the exercises and did strange jobs that I thought were pointless until my teacher showed me they werent. People want to learn now, and dont want to work for it. In America anyway. Its a fast food society. And when they start to train with me they learn that its not that easy. "Well how do they make it look so easy?" They ask me. I play the Behind the scenes of the matrix and tell them that they trained for 6 months everyday, and I show them a Jet li biography and show them that he has been doing this since he was a child. They are surprised when I tell them that the kung fu they see and the kung fu they practice are completely different That "Movie Kung Fu" is something else. That combat, and the movement is straight forward and fights last barely 30 sec. So they usually quit and go to a Taekwondo school down the way thinking that my way is just flashy and nothing else. That Taekwondo they are taking is the real deal over my training. But then they come back and see that I move like Jet li, and hit like an Agent and wonder, Maybe just maybe, CMA are the real thing. thats my opinon on it. I will write more. thats enough for this post. dont get me wrong I love Taekwondo and dont wont to offend anyone who takes it, I just used that as a reference, cause they are 100 taekwondo schools to 1 CMA school in my area.

 

[7starmantis]

Welcome Fasterthandeath, I haven't seen you on the boards before, so allow me to say welcome and make yourself at home!
May I ask what style of kung fu you study? Also, may I ask who your sifu is? I think you are very right about people coming in looking for stuff they have seen in a movie and then not understanding the sacrifice needed t oreally become skilled at kung fu or even MA in general.

7sm

 

[FasterthanDeath]

Thank you 7star. My Sifu(who I referred to as brother by his request) was a 53 yr old man by the name of James Wey Hwang. His orignal first name was Wey but when he moved here he changed it to James. He died at the age of 71 last year. Great man ,more like my father. He taught me Southern styles of Kung Fu, but not katas or forms. Just combat. It wasnt as weird as it sounds but when you think about it, it is very weird. Two of them were drunken style, and pa kua/hsing-i or as its referred to as chinese boxing. Now I teach privately out of my home and the home of chosen students. For free. Whats scary is that I am only 23 yrs old, and here in the MA world of Texas. Noone here can respect me because of my age.

 

[Matt Stone]

"Movie Fu" is one of the greatest detriments to the acceptance of Chinese martial arts as legitimate fighting arts.

FTD - You "hit like an Agent?" I'd say that, at the age of 23, you might have a need to relate to those who might be attracted to you as a teacher, but in dealing with the public at large statements like that will earn you nothing but criticism.

As a student of Bagua and Xingyi, they are not collective referred to as "Chinese boxing." "Chinese boxing" refers to every method of empty handed fighting originating in China. Bagua and Xingyi are simply Bagua and Xingyi... Unless they're not... :uhyeah:

As for no one respecting you because of your age... Hmmm... :idunno: If you think you deserve respect, it may be a sign that you still have some growing to do as a martial artist. It is frustrating, to be sure, to have someone question your physical skill regardless of your age (there are many older practitioners quite capable of besting people 3 and 4 decades their junior), but to demand respect demonstrates a lack of humility (one of the traits that is cultivated through many years of MA training). You might want to rethink that stance as well, and just be yourself. A teacher I held in high esteem when I was younger once told me "Don't try to impress me. You can't. I've simply seen too much for you to do something new enough, unique enough, to impress me. Don't try to impress anyone. Just be impressive. That'll do."

Good advice, and it has served me well.

:asian:

 

[RHD]

"Movie Fu" is one of the greatest detriments to the acceptance of Chinese martial arts as legitimate fighting arts.

FTD - You "hit like an Agent?" I'd say that, at the age of 23, you might have a need to relate to those who might be attracted to you as a teacher, but in dealing with the public at large statements like that will earn you nothing but criticism.

As a student of Bagua and Xingyi, they are not collective referred to as "Chinese boxing." "Chinese boxing" refers to every method of empty handed fighting originating in China. Bagua and Xingyi are simply Bagua and Xingyi... Unless they're not... :uhyeah:

As for no one respecting you because of your age... Hmmm... :idunno: If you think you deserve respect, it may be a sign that you still have some growing to do as a martial artist. It is frustrating, to be sure, to have someone question your physical skill regardless of your age (there are many older practitioners quite capable of besting people 3 and 4 decades their junior), but to demand respect demonstrates a lack of humility (one of the traits that is cultivated through many years of MA training). You might want to rethink that stance as well, and just be yourself. A teacher I held in high esteem when I was younger once told me "Don't try to impress me. You can't. I've simply seen too much for you to do something new enough, unique enough, to impress me. Don't try to impress anyone. Just be impressive. That'll do."

Good advice, and it has served me well.

:asian:

Very well put Mr. Stone. :supcool:

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

I second that, very well stated.

7sm

 

[FasterthanDeath]

In my post to me "hitting like an agent", it was just to prove my point on people who dont know the sacrifice it takes in CMA to be that "Impressive". And as far as me impressing anyone, I dont really care about impressing anyone or really being impressive, I would rather be Effective, and complete. Being impressive denotes a little bit of flare to what is called self-defense. I stopped trying to impress people at my first tourney when I was 10. The look on the judges faces were like they were bored out of their minds!!!! Alot of people always questions no matter what, your skill and what you know, and always like to add in the "What if" factor and that you cant stop that if I do this. Its the slander. Its the lying. The simple fact that I was trained very well and I can do what I say I can do. People being afraid of me, thats what I dont like. I cant control any of it. I just dont like it. But like I said in the thread which deals with this topic. When you see a Shaolin child move and fight like nothing you have ever seen before noone questions him/her. Hey you cant do that. Your in Shaolin? No your not. Your too young. You cant do those things. Yes they can. I think by underestimating that, you are not a very good MA. Thats just my opinon.

 

[Matt Stone]

FasterthanDeath -

I've tried to be civil and address your posts as politely as I am able, however the nature of your posts, the nature of your claims, are making me rapidly believe that you spend far too much time in a fantasy world of martial arts stories, and too little time training in a real school with a real teacher.

Having spent a very long time pursuing my MA training, I can say that young wannabe masters, idolizing fans of Bruce, Jet and other Lee's, starry eyed idealists who yearn for a time romanticized in film, contribute to what this thread first started discussing - the decline of Chinese martial arts.

Too many movie-fu students who believe what they do is real. Too many Dungeons and Dragons players who can't see the boundary between fantasy and reality. Too many disenfranchised youths who want to find a niche in society, no matter how far removed, in which to "belong."

Real martial arts, real "kung fu," is nowhere near that glamorous nor dramatic.

You need some more work, as do we all...

:asian:

 

[FasterthanDeath]

Now I am a youth who is looking to fit in society? CMA is my life. I spent thousands of hours training, exercising and trying to make myself the best I can be, physically and spiritually. I dont want to fit in. I dont want to be honored or called anything. I just want to be treated like a person. Here in the DFW metroplex, if you are a MA you are seperated into two fields. Chinese, and Taekwondo practioners. My art is not dramatic. But the politics in which I want to improve, display, or teach others is. I love CMA. And will always love them. But the problem lies in what others only think, not know. It has lead to people attacking me and to confronting and attacking my students. How is it not dramatic? How many times are my students set up in a tournament to fight an opponent who is 6 or 7 belt ranks above them? How many times do I attend a seminar or tourney only to be told to leave at the door? Its not the CMA community that gives me the problem, its the other arts here in Texas. And a think you are still being polite, It doesnt get ugly till there is name calling. I would love to hear more please, I always think that I could be wrong. But to clarify the "fantasizing", being a mixed race child, I have had alot of fights in my time. There is no fantasizing. Its too real.

 

[RHD]

Heres's a tip: Stop going to TKD tournaments. If you're really doing CMA, then you can't use half of your techniques anyway, and point tag doesn't work at all with Southern Kung Fu. Get a job. Save your money. Go to a national or international level Chinese tournament. Win. Stand up and be recognized. But whining about the TKD people not giving you respect is nothing but whining. :uhyeah:
Mike

 

[7starmantis]

Speaking of which, you should enter some CMA tournaments such as Taiji Legacy. It is an international CMA tourney held in Arlington (Dallas) with like 800 competitors, and probably more this year. These are the tournaments that will give you the backing you need to stand up and "prove yourself" if you will. I'll be there along with most of the US Kung Fu Exchange, this is the kind of tourney you want to win, not the TKD ones. There will be competitors from mainland china, Germany, Italy, the U.S. and many other countries.



I do have to agree however that the nature of your posts seem to be a little "cocky". I'm not saying you are "cocky" but there is a difference in having confidence in your own skills and going past the line. I can relate because I'm only a few years older than you, and I've studied CMA for most of my life as well. However, I don't feel that my skill warrants huge respect. There are those with skill much greater than mine. Having confidence in your skill to me is something that is just for me. I know how confident I am and I use that in case I'm somewhere and something goes down, I know I can get out of there or defend myself. However, when you confidence becomes for others to see and not for yourself, I think that is when it becomes arrogance. I'm not saying you are arrogant, I'm just saying be careful not to become that way. My sigung (teacher’s teacher) lives in the Dallas area and has a school there. He has been doing 7 star mantis kung fu for over 40 years. He had three black belts before that and he doesn't even refer to himself as master. If you want to judge your skill level go to some of these kinds of schools and do some classes. You'll see really quick whether your skill is above being able to learn more, or not quite where you thought it was. In fact go by his school: NTKFE.



I think the idea of being impressive is ok as long as you are impressive because of your skill and not something you have said. There are a few of my younger kung fu brothers and sisters who are impressive to me simply because of the amount of hard work they put into their kung fu. Now they probably want to impress me with their kung fu; I'm not impressed, I've seen way better kung fu. There work though impresses me, because not many people are willing these days to put that much work into it. So I like what was said earlier, don’t try to impress, just simply BE impressive.




7sm

 

[FasterthanDeath]

Yes the taji legacy the only CMA tournament that is held here in the DFW area. Hosted by jimmy wong, a very nice guy. I love those tournaments. And I do attend them every year. I feel thats how tournaments should be and they are always very very good. The reason I feel this way is, I have a fellow MA who asked me along time ago to help him create a system. So, half-heartedly I helped him with some self-defense moves here and there. Pretty much giving him the basics of self-defense. Well he makes it into a system, not a CMA system but one of Japanese orientation. And declares himself Grandmaster of the art. Which I understand, if you created it you are the GM. But then its like he gets accepted to join the Texas Martial arts hall of fame, and he is now introuduced at tournaments and his name is now said right along all of the great MA that I respected in my youth. Hi art is pure crap. No scientific base. Even the stuff I added had no merit to it cause I thought he would never go through with it. But then he turns around and sells this to people and makes a living off of it and I know that if you took 1 Kenpo class you would learn more there than 1 year in his class. And people are buying this!!!!! Whats sad is, that those orginizations let him in. Join there GM boards and chairrooms. And now I dont know what to believe! I have his hold art in my study, its only 10 pages long! No real creed, no philosophy, nothing. Just Rehearsed and repeated movements with no meaning that people believe will save them. I just dont understand how people can be easily swayed by that? Of course the average person cannot tell you what the difference is between Karate and Kung Fu is, but still, most if not all of these principles are just down right bad!!! I thought for awhile I was jealous, but I dont want to teach people for a living, I dont want to be known. I just want to teach. Thats it. I learn more by teaching. I think maybe thats the reason for the cockiness and "chip" issues.

 

[Matt Stone]

Because you "create" something (and did your friend actually "create" something, or did he, like so many others, repackage the crap he already knew into a "new and improved" box?), does not make you a "grandmaster."

Being a member of a "hall of fame" is no great honor, especially when many of these organizations and associations sell their membership to anyone willing to put out the money.

Just train. Be satisfied with that.

 

[FasterthanDeath]

he repackaged it. Its not the honor or the glory he is getting so much, its that people actually think it works an buy it! It really kinda disrepects anyone who has learned self-defense and a MA and took time to live in it as well. I just was shocked at the fact that those who I admired would even stoop to that level of Money first, before honor. But I guess thats capitalism for ya.

 

[7starmantis]

So will you be competing this year at Taiji Legacy? I would love to watch you compete. What style or school do you compete with? I wouldn't hold much stock in the AAU tourneys around this area. There is usually only a handful of competitors anyways. I went my first year with my current school and came home with three medals (two silver and one bronze) and I was competing in the intermediate division against all of like 5 people. Even the AAU Nationals is poorly managed and attended in our area.


7sm

 

[Matt Stone]

I wouldn't hold much stock in the AAU tourneys around this area. ...Even the AAU Nationals is poorly managed and attended in our area.

My teacher was the one primarily responsible for the creation of the AAU CMA program back in the early 90s. Eventually it passed on to some other folks who had $$$ in their eyes more than anything else, and from what I gather (I haven't competed in AAU stuff since 1991 or so) it has nothing but nosedived into the dirt since then...

Sad, really.