Declaration of War... Against An Organization

[Twin Fist]

new threats require new responses

the old way of doing things got us 9-11

I would just as soon avoid that in the future if possible.

 

[KELLYG]

I thought that some/most of the people held in git-mo were captured in Afghanistan/Pakistan. The have been held due to the fact that they were higher ups in aq. They are being held as enemy combatants. Which with that title they do not fall under normal civil law but the military law. I also understand that the supreme court has been involved on several occasions to sort out weather they are or should be allowed the same rights as a U.S. citizen. Either way, our rights as citizens of the US have been compromised.

 

[jkembry]

thats a pretty darned big leap there Caver.

Is it really that big of a leap? I happent ot believe that the so called 'Patriot Act' has eroded some of the liberties that have made the U. S. what it is. While I understand the kneejerk re-action after 9/11, I would have thought some of that would have tempered by now...after all it has been almost 7 years.

After surviving two attacks by terrorist organiztions (#1 while stationed in Germany in Oberammergau, the RAF forgot to set a timer; #2 In the Pentagon when the plane hit) I believe that the fear that 9/11 has caused this country and its people has caused us to change lifestyles to the point that the terrorists have phycologically won; at least for now.

In Germany we were taugh by counter-terrorism teams that to be aware is one thing one should do...but do the best you can not to change your lifestyle.

 

[Sukerkin]

Light hearted brief aside: I hope you mean someone like the Red Army Faction rather than the Royal Air Force there, jk?

 

[MA-Caver]

thats a pretty darned big leap there Caver.

Is it really that big of a leap? I happent ot believe that the so called 'Patriot Act' has eroded some of the liberties that have made the U. S. what it is. While I understand the kneejerk re-action after 9/11, I would have thought some of that would have tempered by now...after all it has been almost 7 years.

After surviving two attacks by terrorist organiztions (#1 while stationed in Germany in Oberammergau, the RAF forgot to set a timer; #2 In the Pentagon when the plane hit) I believe that the fear that 9/11 has caused this country and its people has caused us to change lifestyles to the point that the terrorists have psychologically won; at least for now.

In Germany we were taught by counter-terrorism teams that to be aware is one thing one should do...but do the best you can not to change your lifestyle.

I can understand and WANT to have better protection against terrorists including local home growns like Tim McVie and his group... whomever they are, but for crying out loud I don't want to sacrifice my own freedoms because I might "say the wrong thing" and/or be misunderstood that my dissatisfaction with current and future administrations might cause me to buy a big white van somewhere and load it with explosives.
If I believe that theres a need for a change in government then we'll do it as intended. Fire them and replace them as per our constitutional rights to do so as a people.

 

[jkembry]

Light hearted brief aside: I hope you mean someone like the Red Army Faction rather than the Royal Air Force there, jk?

Yep...Red Army Faction....My Father-in-law is retired RAF (Royal Air Force)...I should know better.

 

[FearlessFreep]

This would actually probably be a good idea. It would add to the legitimacy and put things more in line with the separation of powers in the Constitution.

Plus you could then start identifying people as 'enemy combatants' and 'illegal' combatants for sake of Geneva Conventions handling.

Plus then you could start identifying 'member of Al-Queda==enemy, 79 yo grandmother trying to visit relatives in Denver != enemy' and put the TSA mostly out of work

 

[Makalakumu]

new threats require new responses

the old way of doing things got us 9-11

I would just as soon avoid that in the future if possible.

This certainly is the rationale for many of the things that we've seen, but I begin to wonder when thousands of pages of documents spelling out the Patriot Act and Homeland Security are trotted out a mere handful of hours after the event. The "new way" popped up kinda quick...or maybe it was the Old Way, something people have seen and governments have done before.

The sad thing is that most of Congress voted on things like the Patriot Act without even reading it. Couple this with the ambiguous vote for military action and you really have a mess, a complete abbrogation of a check and balance. Our Constitution was designed so that Executive power could never be concentrated like this.

...and the courts have been rolling it back for seven years...

Now this new Declaration. It won't be President Bush who reaps the ultimate power this Act could grant. It'll be the next guy. How much do you trust THAT person to use it benevolently?

 

[Makalakumu]

This would actually probably be a good idea. It would add to the legitimacy and put things more in line with the separation of powers in the Constitution.

Plus you could then start identifying people as 'enemy combatants' and 'illegal' combatants for sake of Geneva Conventions handling.

Plus then you could start identifying 'member of Al-Queda==enemy, 79 yo grandmother trying to visit relatives in Denver != enemy' and put the TSA mostly out of work

Like I said, it be nice to see how things are defined.

 

[Sukerkin]

My word, jkembry, to be embroiled in the neighbourhood of two terrorist attacks certainly qualifies you to have an informed opinion on the matter of security vis-a-vis personal freedom :rei:. That's especially so given the decades spanned between those descendants of Baader-Meinhoff and the more recent incarnation of the (allegedly) Islamic terrorists.

How do you see the difference between how the security forces dealt with the constant stream of terrorist acts in the sixties and seventies compared to the 'One Big Success' that has been waved for years now as the reason for us to shut up and do as we're told?

My impressions will not hold the weight of yours as I was only a teenager when the Soviet funded, European, terrorist groups were operating. However, in those times, there was an urging towards natural caution and being observant rather then the present impetous towards "Stay in your homes; be off the streets by nightfall" (quote courtesy of The Stranglers).

I don't recall the huge media driven hyping of fear back then either - tho' I was a 'teen and so may have been protected from it by my inherent shield of invulnerability . There were planes, pubs and banks being exploded all over the continent and we weren't being herded into our 'pens' like so many sheep.

 

[jkembry]

How do you see the difference between how the security forces dealt with the constant stream of terrorist acts in the sixties and seventies compared to the 'One Big Success' that has been waved for years now as the reason for us to shut up and do as we're told?

I have never been asked this before...and I am not totally sure what I feel. I will say that the technics that the Bundeswehr acounter-terrorist forces still apply today. Be well aware of your surroundings and that these folks are out there and they do mean to do harm...but don't change the basic way that you would live your life. As far as the one big success. Truth be told, given where I was on that day, I was pretty frightened, angry and a host of other emotions for the next few weeks. Then I opened my eyes and watched the knee-jerk reaction against people that most likely didn't have anything to do with it...all in the name of protecting the Nation. Then using those scenes to strike fear into the public to justify these actions...(warrantless monitoring of phone calls...the way prosoners are being held in limbo at GTMO...etc). Are we truly protecting the Nation or is something else going on. I don't know, and I would dare to say that these activities may have stifled an action or two that we have never heard about. I live in the Washington, DC metro area where security cameras are very prevelent. I have nothing against the cameras or the use of them...but I would like to see the policy governing them...and that I have yet to find.

I don't recall the huge media driven hyping of fear back then either - tho' I was a 'teen and so may have been protected from it by my inherent shield of invulnerability . There were planes, pubs and banks being exploded all over the continent and we weren't being herded into our 'pens' like so many sheep.

Whilst in Europe, I don't recall the hype either. It was more of an awareness, and being observent...using common sense. Another thing that was taught was to watch the actions of people. the actions are more telling than perhaps how they looked or what they wore. It really isn't that difficult to tell when a person doesn't seem to belong or appears out of place. Those are the things I look for when I am out and about...and if something just doesn't look right, then I change how I act or where I go. Maybe...hoepfully...I am wrong, but I will trust my instincts.

I do believe there is hope that this will tunr itself around...and have seen steps in that direction...but there is a way to go....but we will get there eventually.

 

[Twin Fist]

has caused us to change lifestyles to the point

Other than it being even MORE of a pain to go to the airport, my life hasnt changed at all.

Niether has anyone else's that I know.

How has our lifestyle changed so much?

they are not shutting down newspapers
they are not rounding up dissedents.
There is no martial law

Not much really has changed, so please tell me how they have won?

 

[jkembry]

Other than it being even MORE of a pain to go to the airport, my life hasnt changed at all.

Niether has anyone else's that I know.

How has our lifestyle changed so much?

they are not shutting down newspapers
they are not rounding up dissedents.
There is no martial law

Not much really has changed, so please tell me how they have won?

Perhaps you haven't changed, but I can tell you that I know people here in the Washington, DC Metro area that a frightened to go downtown to museums. My sister will not get on a plane because she is certain that the plane she gets on will be the next one flown into a building. I am not sure if general aviation restrictions have been lifted at Washington Nation Airport or not, but that is another particular instance.

What I am speaking of is using fear to manipulate laws that restrict they way we may want to live or to justify the way the government will do things as well as what they will do.

So perhaps on a personal level not much has changed (depending on the person)...but I still see a erosion of liberties that we once enjoyed (ie. not needing a passport to go into Canada or Caribbean).



I

 

[Sukerkin]

At the risk of slightly divering the flow of the thread, I wonder if, TF, that it might be reasonable to say that perhaps you don't see the positioning of precursors of change because the opinions you hold are in line with what the nebulous 'powers that be' desire?

Please understand that I'm not attempting any slight or insult to your goodself when I say this.

It's just that it occurred to me that those who have no complaint against the 'system' as it stands, other than they would actually like to see things 'tightened up', are not going to be disposed to a negative reaction to small changes which signal a larger change in attitude which has yet to become plain.

 

[KELLYG]

I think that the long term ramifications of the patriot act, holding prisoners with out due process etc. is yet to be seen. I see it as a cancer that begins as one cell mutating into thousands utill it kills the host. Where do we stop it? Where is the line in the sand?

 

[Ray]

I think that the long term ramifications of the patriot act, holding prisoners with out due process etc. is yet to be seen. I see it as a cancer that begins as one cell mutating into thousands utill it kills the host. Where do we stop it? Where is the line in the sand?

Please explain the due process and rights theoretically given to POWs and the differences between the dejure and defacto treatment by the various players in modern wars. It's only because I'm not aware of any "due process" afforded to POWs that I ask. Thanking you in advance.

 

[Nolerama]

I think in terms of American citizens, due process is necessary in the pursuit of justice. However, I don't think we should be detaining suspected terrorists in GITMO without a similar form of due process. That's such hypocrisy.

If we are to pass judgment on others, they should be judged by us in the same way our own citizens are judged. Unfortunately they're not... This should be left to an international panel, not the US.

 

[KELLYG]

This is an except of a document posted today on msnbc

updated 10:27 a.m. ET, Mon., July. 21, 2008

"Hamdan was captured at a roadblock in Afghanistan in November 2001, allegedly with two surface-to-air missiles in the car. But his lawyers say he was merely a low-level driver and mechanic without any role in the al-Qaida conspiracy against the United States.
Repeated legal obstacles


Repeated legal obstacles
Hamdan was taken to Guantanamo in May 2002 and selected as one of the first inmates to face prosecution. His case has created repeated legal obstacles for the Pentagon including a Supreme Court ruling that struck down an earlier version of the tribunal system.
Allred began the proceedings Monday by indicating that he would not allow the government to use some of the evidence interrogators obtained from Hamdan during his detention in Afghanistan. Defense lawyers have argued those statements were tainted by “coercive” techniques and the fact that interrogators did not advise him of a right against self-incrimination.
The United States has so far charged 20 Guantanamo prisoners and military officials say they expect to prosecute about 80 in all."

 

[Twin Fist]

So perhaps on a personal level not much has changed (depending on the person)...but I still see a erosion of liberties that we once enjoyed (ie. not needing a passport to go into Canada or Caribbean).

hold up.

so, to leave the country you shouldnt need passport?

Correct me if i am wrong, but it sounds like that is something we should have been doing all along?

what you call "liberties", I call sloppy security.

We SHOULD be monitoring immigrants.
We SHOULD be reviewing who comes and go into and out of the country, it's stupid not to.

You can still go to Canada, or The Islands

You can sit on your computer and complain about the government all day long, no one will come to get you.

You can still hope on a plane anytime you want to.

again, what have you lost?

nothing

and dont be vague and just say "liberties" be specific, please.


plus, and here is the important thing, no country at war keeps acting as if it is not

we are in fact, at WAR

the war was declared in 1972 in Munich

we just never bothered to fight back because they never hit us hard enough for most people to notice.

Unless of course you deny we are at war.

 

[Twin Fist]

It's just that it occurred to me that those who have no complaint against the 'system' as it stands, other than they would actually like to see things 'tightened up', are not going to be disposed to a negative reaction to small changes which signal a larger change in attitude which has yet to become plain.

The problem I have Suk is that the people complaining, can NEVER give you anything specific to complain about

it is all "maybe" "could be" "might be"

Nothing has actually been lost, but the complaining goes on and on, and oddly enough, the same ones complaining? just so happen to be the same people (by and large, not all of course) that say "bush was selected not elected" or "Bush stole the elections in 2000 and 2004"

this tells me they are objecting NOT because of what is happening, but rather who is in charge.

and I will NEVER respect partisan thinking