Declaration of Independance an Illegal Document?

[Sukerkin]

I saw this on the BBC and, of course, just had to post it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15345511

The defence for the traitors was flimsy but the judgement in their avour was 'bought' - what a shock! Hardly an unbiased panel ...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Read it this morning. One can say that the legality of the document depends upon the end result.

Benjamin Franklin stated, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." That's pretty much the crust of the biscuit. Great Britain recognized our independence, which granted legitimacy to the document. If we had lost our war for independence, it would instead be listed in the history books as a 'rebellion' and our heroes would be traitors.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Pretty much. Today the US Declaration of Independence is a 'sacred document'.
However, treason was the game, rebellion the rule, and if you lost, those who signed it would have had a short drop and sudden stop as a reward.
There have been a number of similar documents issued, but in most of those cases the issuers lost the conflicts and today they are little remembered.

 

[Tez3]

Treason would have been hung..drawn and quartered. not just hanging.

 

[Big Don]

Of course it was illegal at the time. It was nothing more then an airing of grievances and a declaration of treasonous conspiracy. Like Bill said, had the founding fathers lost, there would have been a completely different story. History is, as has been noted, written by the victors.

 

[Sukerkin]

Quite so, ladies and gentlemen. I posted this as a light-hearted bit of fun rather than as a serious political point.

Aye, the Founding Fathers were traitors and should have suffered the consequences of their treason but ... as I've pointed out before ... at the time the colony wasn't worth the keeping (such a bad move on Britains part). So they won their independence and that very transition turned the Constitution from an instrument of treason into the contractual document that formed the government of what became the United States of America.

The winning of a revolution is the most important thing, altho' maybe joint first goes to the concept of legitimacy once the fighting is done. Pretty much once Britain recognised America as a 'nation' then any question of the legality of the Constitution became something of a moot point.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Pretty much once Britain recognised America as a 'nation' then any question of the legality of the Constitution became something of a moot point.

I suspect you meant the "Declaration of Independence," rather than the "Constitution." The Constitution came into being quite a bit later, and was legal from it's inception, since it is the core document of our legal system. The Declaration of Independence does not actually create any laws.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Quite so, ladies and gentlemen. I posted this as a light-hearted bit of fun rather than as a serious political point.

Good luck with that in the Study

Aye, the Founding Fathers were traitors and should have suffered the consequences of their treason

Why them is fightin' words and it it wasn't for the fact we already won the revolution against our tyrannical oppressors (them thar redcoats)...I'd start one JUST for that

but ... as I've pointed out before ... at the time the colony wasn't worth the keeping (such a bad move on Britains part).
The winning of a revolution is the most important thing, altho' maybe joint first goes to the concept of legitimacy once the fighting is done. Pretty much once Britain recognised America as a 'nation'

Oh so that last thing about treason wasn't enough eh' America not worth it eh' well that tears it.... of course you realize...this means war

 

[elder999]

Well, yeah-it was a rebellion,and traitorous. If it had taken place today, the media would be calling the Founders "terrorists." Had they remained "colonies" of the "empire on whom the sun will never set ( :lfao: )" then the story might have been told differently. For a while, anyway. We'd have gotten our independence one way or another-like India, and a bunch of other previous pieces of "the empire..._ :lfao: "on whom" :lfao: :lfao: "the sun" :lfao: :lfao: :lfao: :lfao: :lfao: :lfao: :lfao: :lfao: :lfao:-

Sorry. I'd say "I can't say it with a straight face," but I just can't say it at all.....:lfao:

Seriously, while they may have been British subjects, by the time of the revolution, they'd become a distinct people, with a distinct character-one that didn't believe in monarchs of any kind-one that rejected the idea of authoritarian figures. A country of men and women who basically believed that they could do whatever they wanted to, almost regardless of any perception of "class." We'd have fought again, and again, and again, and eventually we'd have won.

Or, your lot would have done like you did the first time, and just given up. :lfao:

 

[Sukerkin]

I suspect you meant the "Declaration of Independence," rather than the "Constitution." The Constitution came into being quite a bit later, and was legal from it's inception, since it is the core document of our legal system. The Declaration of Independence does not actually create any laws.

Aye I did mate - typing too fast whilst talking to my missus .

 

[jks9199]

I suspect you meant the "Declaration of Independence," rather than the "Constitution." The Constitution came into being quite a bit later, and was legal from it's inception, since it is the core document of our legal system. The Declaration of Independence does not actually create any laws.

Actually, there's a very good argument that the Constition was illegal as well. The writers weren't sent to create a new government...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The Declaration of Independence was legal.
But so were these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_independence

 

[Sukerkin]

There are a lot more there than I would've been able to pull out of a hat, Bob. Quite a surprise. In essence, the principle of a group of citizens/subjects to cohere together and attempt to limit or remove the power of those that govern them probably solidified with Magna Carta - even there, it was only because the Barons represented the real military power in the country that the king had to acquiesce and sign it.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Funny how it was okay for the colonies to leave the UK back in the 18th century, but the South was not allowed to leave the USA in the 19th...

 

[elder999]

Funny how it was okay for the colonies to leave the UK back in the 18th century, but the South was not allowed to leave the USA in the 19th...

That's why it's called the War of Southern Treason.
:lfao:

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, if they'd won then the same 'clause' would have kicked in as did for the treacherous initial revolution.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Aye, if they'd won then the same 'clause' would have kicked in as did for the treacherous initial revolution.

Don't make us throw your tea in Boston Harbor agian :uhyeah:

 

[Sukerkin]

:splutters: Good timing! I had just taken a mouthful of splendid (if a bit acid) chenin blanc at that juncture .

 

[Buka]

It's only treason if you lose.

 

[jks9199]

That's why it's called the War of Southern Treason.
:lfao:

Pardon me, sir, but that pesky bit of uproar some years back is more properly referred to as The War of Northern Aggression. Did I not have it on good authority that you are indeed a learned gentleman, and therefore the term clearly the result of error or misguided, perhaps, even intemperate speech, I might find it necessary to invite you to settle the issue upon the Field of Honor.