crossing legs?

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Incidentally, I believe there is no crossing of the legs, traditionally speaking, in Kukishin ryu. Koto ryu was to the best of my knowledge designed for self defense and guerilla combat rather than battlefield fighting.
 

Shogun

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Before I ever did Yoko Aruki, I had about 1 year of Aikido experience. In Aikido, we have two movements that are used as one exercise called Irimi Tenkan. I'm sure some have heard of it. Anyway, one steps foreward half step, followed by a full step and a pivot, until facing the opposite direction. This rotation proves to be the unbalance point (for the attacker) in a lot of attacks. when using Yoko Aruki, if caught up in a state of unbalance, it is practical to Tenkan (turn). doing so will not only free you of unbalance, but throw your Uke off as well. It all goes back to rotating the hips, which can be found in almost all MA.
 

heretic888

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Koto ryu was to the best of my knowledge designed for self defense and guerilla combat rather than battlefield fighting.

Guerilla combat? Really??

I find that very intriguing --- although it makes a great deal of sense, considering its an Iga tradition.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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I think that was the case for most Japanese styles that emphasize dakentai more than grappling, at least those that were developed during the Sengoku Jidai, during the era of katchu bujutsu.

I'm not going to revitalize the old discussion about Chinese influences again, but I'm wondering if there are any parallels that can be drawn between the evolution of Koto ryu and the Indonesian kuntao styles. Both pummel the guy relentlessly until he's down and then give him a few more shots to make sure he stays there. In both self defense and guerilla warfare, hit-and-run is the name of the game.
 

sojobow

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Don Roley said:
Now that Sojobow has been suspended, maybe this subject can finally be discussed calmly and honestly.

The following clip,

http://www.silat-video.com/pisau2.avi

shows a Silat style of cross step. Twice as a matter of fact. The movements are deep and there is a lot going on that may not be obvious to a causual viewer. The guy who made this clip is very, very skilled and has had some real experience in using what he shows.
just too many obvious weaknesses and openings. No power generated in a forward momentum as well as intentional restrictions self imposed. One thing I will say is that in these types of demonstrations, one usually over-exagerates which is why I have a problem with most kata and forms. Good for demonstrations, but the side-view gives us no real value. I say to try and visualize the technique being demonstrated from either behind or directly in front of the guy. You'll then see the restriction of motion, range etc. But I do like the maintenance of head-level. The final movement would only be of use in attacking or defending in a direction 180 degrees from the original attacking direction. Basically, a weak chinese variation IMO.
 

Don Roley

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sojobow said:
just too many obvious weaknesses and openings. No power generated in a forward momentum as well as intentional restrictions self imposed.

I thik you are just saying that as part of your constant attacks against anything that is done in a Japanese style. I can poin tot as far back as how you made comments about Dale Seago and was not able to back up what you said for a precedent.

And I can clearly see the power from the leg movements being used in both forward and backwards during the cross step. pause the clip and go through it frame by frame if you have to. But if you have the eyes and experience to see, you will note that the arms and the legs move in coordination and in the same vector of force, aimed by the hips.
 

sojobow

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Don Roley said:
I thik you are just saying that as part of your constant attacks against anything that is done in a Japanese style. I can poin tot as far back as how you made comments about Dale Seago and was not able to back up what you said for a precedent.
Personally, I have a lot of respect for Dale Seago.

And I can clearly see the power from the leg movements being used in both forward and backwards during the cross step. pause the clip and go through it frame by frame if you have to. But if you have the eyes and experience to see, you will note that the arms and the legs move in coordination and in the same vector of force, aimed by the hips.
Am I not allowed to make a simple observation? Right or wrong, tis just an observation. Again, because of the angle we're exposed too (a side-view), you don't really see the limitations he places himself in by narrowing or even eliminating the triangles of power, eliminating other vectors and opening other passing lanes (my own term). But, because the video is a "demonstration", it isn't something I'd use in a real fight. It is only a demonstration. A training tool.

Look at this one: http://www.chuskungfu.org/movie/northern_danney1_lq.mpg

The blocks, I am told, are similar to one in xingyi's za shi chui called cat washes face. (sliqueRick). Personally, I find the demonstration interesting in that the kick is an excellent technique (even though I wouldn't use it other than for demonstration purposes). The blocks are good exhibitions but they (the punches) actually would not have struck any target as the distance is unrealistic. But imagine viewing the demonstration from behind either individual versus this side-view.

Come to think of it, Dale Seago has a video demonstration of choshe dori which shows the same problems with these type of training videos. If one wants to cross their legs, be my guess. It just makes me grimmish as I know what would happen to me if I did this against one of our blackbelts. I'd be on my back with my legs still crossed trying to regain consciousness. Not only is crossing legs bad, but so is backing up. Just an opinion of this lowly purple belt in martial talk. Incidently, the leg power you mention is actually up and down versus any forward or backward vector.

Keep posting on this subject, its getting interesting.
 

Don Roley

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sojobow said:
Am I not allowed to make a simple observation? Right or wrong, tis just an observation.

Of course. You have proven in the past that you have an agenda and can not back up what you claim, but no one is excluded from the discussion merely based on that. Just as long as everyone knows what type of person you are.

Of course, it would be easier if you answered Bester's question he posed to you a while back about just how proven your experience is, and then backed it up with independently verifiable proof.
 
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Enson

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Don Roley said:
Of course. You have proven in the past that you have an agenda and can not back up what you claim, but no one is excluded from the discussion merely based on that. Just as long as everyone knows what type of person you are.

Of course, it would be easier if you answered Bester's question he posed to you a while back about just how proven your experience is, and then backed it up with independently verifiable proof.
don, please re-read your post. it doesn't make any comments to crossing legs, yoko aruki, or the likes. lets all try to keep this thread on topic.
peace
 

heretic888

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it doesn't make any comments to crossing legs, yoko aruki, or the likes. lets all try to keep this thread on topic.

Also note, enson, that comments about crossing legs, yoko aruki, or Koto ryu's history of guerilla warfare in Iga --- all while very interesting and definately worth discussing --- have absoluting nothing to do with the benefits and/or drawbacks of "neo" ninjutsu groups (since, as a few have pointed out, many of them don't apparently teach the yoko aruki of Koto ryu and Togakure ryu).

I maintain that this topic should be discussed on the traditional ninjutsu forum (since we are referring to a traditional method of Koto ryu and Togakure ryu). This is not the thread's topic.

Just my thoughts, anyway. :asian:
 

Shogun

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The discussion is why Neo groups DON'T use Yoko aruki, or crossing legs of any sort.

just too many obvious weaknesses and openings. No power generated in a forward momentum as well as intentional restrictions self imposed.
Sojobow, are you stating that crossing the legs cannot generate power? Are you familiar with Judo or Aikido techniques where one crosses the legs? the leg gets pulled up to a more solid base in which power is generated from.
 

heretic888

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The discussion is why Neo groups DON'T use Yoko aruki, or crossing legs of any sort.

Hrmph.... and I thought it was about the benefits/drawbacks of neo-ninjutsu.

Although, technically, a complete lack of crossing-legs techniques could be argued to be a major drawback...

:asian:
 

sojobow

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Shogun said:
The discussion is why Neo groups DON'T use Yoko aruki, or crossing legs of any sort.

Sojobow, are you stating that crossing the legs cannot generate power? Are you familiar with Judo or Aikido techniques where one crosses the legs? the leg gets pulled up to a more solid base in which power is generated from.
I can't think of an instance where crossing one's legs can generate power. Again, I'm thinking of instances where you cross your legs while you upper torso is still facing an opponent. I am familiar with Judo but not aikido techniques. I have seen some aikido techniques where you cross your legs to inhance turning your upper torso in an opposite direction. Feel free to define a Judo technique whereby you cross your legs.
 

Don Roley

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sojobow said:
I can't think of an instance where crossing one's legs can generate power.

Probably just a lack of experience on your part. I had trouble understanding the concept a couple of decades ago. But a little experience in various martial arts since then has opened my eyes. It would be best if you have a real teacher teach you it. You can find similar moves in many arts like Bagua as well.
 

Kizaru

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Excuse me Mr. Roley,

Realizing that you are a moderator now, I don't want to overstep my bounds, although the question must be asked.

When you go to the zoo, you go straight for the monkey cage, don't you?
You dangle food just out of reach, stick your greasy fingers in the cage and taunt the animals by making faces, don't you!? Because that's exactly what you're doing here...

Don Roley said:
Probably just a lack of experience on your part. I had trouble understanding the concept a couple of decades ago...
Donny Shihan, you're nothing but a monkey teaser and you should quit dangling your banana in front of the cage.
:asian:
 

Kreth

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Well, let's delve a little into the methodology of how techniques were traditionally transmitted... Back in the olden days, men would go out to battle, if they came back alive, they might write down some notes showing how. Over time, some of these notes began to be practiced as kata.
Now, do you really think that if every time a warrior crossed his feet, he got steamrolled and then butchered, that the technique would have ever been passed down?

Jeff
 
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Enson

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i understand that c.l. is practiced in other arts. this is fine and good for others. we personally don't practice it from what i have seen. maybe someone will come in and teach it to us, and revolutionize our way of thinking. "maybe". i do have to say that the "triangulation" would be off tying up your legs even for an instant.

peace
 

heretic888

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Wrong thread.

Yikes!! My bad. :whip:

Sorry, it was really late at night when I typed that. Must'a gotten all them subscribed threads confused....
 

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