Counter the counters of your technique

Kung Fu Wang

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For every technique that you train, you should also train how to:

- counter that technique.
- counter the counters of that technique.

Unless you know how to counter the counters of your technique, you should be careful when you apply your technique. The reason is simple, you don't want to put yourself in a situation that you don't know how to handle.

What will you do when you throw a high kick, your opponent just uses his arms to cover his head and run toward you like a mad man? If you don't have the counter for it, will you even try to use your "high kick"?

Do you always think about 2 steps ahead? When you attack,

- how will your opponent respond (1 step ahead),
- how will you respond to your opponent's respond (2 steps ahead)?
 

ST1Doppelganger

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For every technique that you train, you should also train how to:

- counter that technique.
- counter the counters of that technique.

Unless you know how to counter the counters of your technique, you should be careful when you apply your technique. The reason is simple, you don't want to put yourself in a situation that you don't know how to handle.

What will you do when you throw a high kick, your opponent just uses his arms to cover his head and run toward you like a mad man? If you don't have the counter for it, will you even try to use your "high kick"?

I sure will its why I cross trained and love grappling.

I personally think every striker (especially kickers) should know the basics of grappling if not more then the basics.
 

skribs

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I agree. The question is at what point in your training do you start working on the counter to the counter?
 

oftheherd1

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In the sense that many MA moves are defenses, the moves are counters to the attack. Then you have counters to many moves. How far do you want to or can you, go with counters?

As to your high kick, covering the head and charging is dangerous. If the kick was a set-up or you are taking on a grappler things can go south quickly. Not saying anything about one of both arms possibly being damaged if you aren't dodging or blocking.
 

Touch Of Death

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I think this is a great exercise, but the counter for the counter for the counter, is going to wear thin after a while, and you just have to fall back on the principles of what ever art you study. :)
 

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I think this is a great exercise, but the counter for the counter for the counter, is going to wear thin after a while, and you just have to fall back on the principles of what ever art you study. :)

The principles of whatever art you study should encompass the counter-for-counter elements or it won't function as a martial art. Any art that spars regularly will include it. In wrestling it might be double leg countered by sprawl countered by sit out, in any art that includes standing grappling it might be wrist grab countered by standing armbar countered by a switch to opposite arm armbar, in fencing it would be described as attack, riposte, counter-riposte, in the kali I study it is attack, contrada, recontra. While you might just leave this to formulation stage, it usually works better if it is guided in practice rather than doing it for the first time on the fly.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

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I agree. The question is at what point in your training do you start working on the counter to the counter?
I'll say

beginner level training - offense.
intermediate level training - defense and counter.
advance level training - combo (counter to counters).

In Chinese wrestling, the combo (counter to counters) is taught at least 6 months or even 1 year after. the reason is the instructor wants his students to develop a solid offense first. When a student applies his offense move, he will also experience all different kind of counters that his opponent may respond. One day the teacher asks his students to use that technique as 'fake" and set up another move.
 
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Blindside

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I agree. The question is at what point in your training do you start working on the counter to the counter?

In kali we start from the very beginning, maybe not day 1, but probably by week 2.

I have taken seminar students through attack, counter, recounter in a four hour class. Actually I did it in an hour last month, but the students didn't get the associated footwork and body positioning, but that was more of a "taster" class rather than people who will be long term students.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

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In the sense that many MA moves are defenses, the moves are counters to the attack. Then you have counters to many moves. How far do you want to or can you, go with counters?

When you block your opponent's punch, your opponent may:

- borrow your blocking force and spin his arm into a haymaker to the side of your head.
- pull his punching arm back, let your blocking arm to pass, and then punch you with the same arm from the other side of your blocking arm.
- grab your blocking arm and punch you with his other arm.
- ...

Even in a simple defense move such as "blocking", you will need to prepare different responds from your opponent. The question is, do you train just the "blocking", or do you train all different responds after your "blocking"? In other words, do you truly understand what a simple "blocking" can get you into?
 

Danny T

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In kali we start from the very beginning, maybe not day 1, but probably by week 2.

I have taken seminar students through attack, counter, recounter in a four hour class. Actually I did it in an hour last month, but the students didn't get the associated footwork and body positioning, but that was more of a "taster" class rather than people who will be long term students.
This is one of the things I really like about Pekiti-Tirsia we begin from day 1 on footwork and basic attacks with the understanding it is used for attacks, counters, re-counters and vs 3 opponents. During the course of learning the pekiti system you will learn multiple counters to each attack and multiple re-counters for each counter.
 

skribs

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Any art that spars regularly will include it.

Yes and no. It depends on how you spar. Wrestling might give you a lot of good counters for a double leg, but none will include striking downward with the elbow onto the attacker's spine as he's bear-hugging your legs. You won't be prepared to counter that counter if all you do is wrestle. Similarly, TKD sparring is 99% kicks and 1% body punches. Sparring in TKD will not prepare you for when you kick, your opponent grabs your leg and turns it into a ground fight.

That's not to say someone with wrestling is at the mercy of a striker, or someone with TKD will not practice more practical applications, but sparring often comes with rules, and counters often operate outside that set of rules.

---

beginner level training - offense.
intermediate level training - defense and counter.
advance level training - combo (counter to counters).

This seems reasonable, although it probably depends on the art. From my understanding, Wing Chun is very much about counters, so it is very likely to be focused on counters than something like TKD sparring, which is more about just point scoring. One could also argue that BJJ is entirely built on counters, since the stereotypical go-to move is the guard position.

I think this is a great exercise, but the counter for the counter for the counter, is going to wear thin after a while, and you just have to fall back on the principles of what ever art you study. :)

This makes sense. If you worry too much about steps 4 and 5, you'll never get steps 1 and 2 down.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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If you worry too much about steps 4 and 5, you'll never get steps 1 and 2 down.

This is why you have to make your step 1 as your bread and butter (it may take 6 months to 1 year) before you can even worry about your step 2. I know a guy who forced his son to apply "hip throw" only for 2 years. 2 years later, one day his father said, "Now try to use your hip throw to set up your ...". Later on his son became 3 times Judo champion in Taiwan.

IMO, your 1st move is the root of your tree (you may grow many trees). It will grow many branches out of it. Your root has to be very strong to support all your branches.
 
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arnisador

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This is a crucial concept for us in arnis--you can't expect your first strike to get through. You can expect a counter. You need to be able to counter that! We call it "tapi-tapi" (basically, counter-for-counter).
 

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This makes sense. If you worry too much about steps 4 and 5, you'll never get steps 1 and 2 down.

Except steps four and five may really just be the first counters to a common attack. It isn't that Counter 3 is necessarily something new and distinct, it may be a left hand jam followed by a right cross, and your ability to deal with that better be part of your core material.
 

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I think this is a great exercise, but the counter for the counter for the counter, is going to wear thin after a while, and you just have to fall back on the principles of what ever art you study. :)


The trick is to make them circular.so that your counters lead back to the original concepts.
 

K-man

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Counters exist at all levels of training. It starts with the simple punch/block and continues with punch/block/punch which is of course countering the counter.

Another example of countering counters appears in continuous bunkai in our training. We respond to an attack then assume that our response is countered. We then keep attacking by countering the counter right through the kata. Of course in a practical sense, that will never happen as the attacker quickly runs out of options, assuming he was fortunate enough to block our first strike initially.

In Aikido it is very different. A lot of the counters are not taught until way beyond Shodan. At that stage everything just seem to flow so you have attack, counter, counter the counter, then counter the counter of the counter. That seems terrible complicated but I will explain with the example I used at the weekend seminar I just attended.


We were practising Kakie, a type of sticky hands training in karate. From his attack I applied a sankyo hold (aikido) to my partner who counters by turning away to escape but straight into a punch and choke as he turns.
:asian:
 

oftheherd1

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When you block your opponent's punch, your opponent may:

- borrow your blocking force and spin his arm into a haymaker to the side of your head.
- pull his punching arm back, let your blocking arm to pass, and then punch you with the same arm from the other side of your blocking arm.
- grab your blocking arm and punch you with his other arm.
- ...

Even in a simple defense move such as "blocking", you will need to prepare different responds from your opponent. The question is, do you train just the "blocking", or do you train all different responds after your "blocking"? In other words, do you truly understand what a simple "blocking" can get you into?

I'm not sure, are you agreeing with me? When an attack is defended, the defense can be considered a counter. However, we don't usually think of them that way, at least not in the Hapkido I studied. We tend to think of an attack, and having a defense for that. The original attacker, if he realizes what I am doing, and knows a way to prevent my defense, may indeed then have a counter which he would use to continue to try to hurt/subdue me. I may have a specific counter to his counter, or simply move back out of his way if his counter isn't a grapple. But how far would one intend to go with that? Finding an opponent who was that skilled, might make me rethink the entire encounter. I might wish to move back and wait for another attack that I could defend against without my opponent having a counter. Not all defenses can be countered without ceasing the attack before the defense does its job.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I'm not sure, are you agreeing with me? When an attack is defended, the defense can be considered a counter. However, we don't usually think of them that way, at least not in the Hapkido I studied. We tend to think of an attack, and having a defense for that. The original attacker, if he realizes what I am doing, and knows a way to prevent my defense, may indeed then have a counter which he would use to continue to try to hurt/subdue me. I may have a specific counter to his counter, or simply move back out of his way if his counter isn't a grapple. But how far would one intend to go with that? Finding an opponent who was that skilled, might make me rethink the entire encounter. I might wish to move back and wait for another attack that I could defend against without my opponent having a counter. Not all defenses can be countered without ceasing the attack before the defense does its job.
I was responding to your comment "How far do you want to or can you, go with counters?" IMO, you have to go at least one more level from your initial action (whether it's an offense or defense) and that is "counter to your opponent's respond".

I find this kind of thinking can be very useful in our daily life. Whenever that you take an action, there will always be some outcome. If you can't deal with that outcome then you should not take your action in the 1st place.

For example, I love to change my straight punch into a haymaker if my opponent gives me a hard block. I either don't use a hard block myself, or I will intentional use a hard block so I can take advantage on my opponent's haymaker. If I'm not good at "taking advantage on my opponent's haymaker", I will never use my hard block.
 
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