Conflicting instruction

[Rough Rider]

I'm getting very frustrated in class and need some advice on how to solve the problem without being disrespectful.
Here's the situation: I go to class and Master A teaches me a new technique. I practice it and get it down pretty good. Next time I'm there, Master B is teaching. When observing me, he points out certain aspects that I'm doing incorrectly and shows me the "right" way. I go with it figuring I forgot or misunderstood what Master A showed me. As you can guess, this keeps going back and forth with each master contradicting the other.
I read in another thread that it is disrespectful to say "Master A showed me this way..." I also don't feel right going over their heads and taking it up with the Grandmaster. Right now, I'm struggling to learn several techniques two different ways and remembering who wants to see what. This is not an isolated incident.

Help?

 

[K-man]

Firstly, welcome to MT. From your profile I see you are TKD so that is outside my sphere but the situation you have described exists in every art. Everyone has their idea of what you should be doing. In my field of Goju one of the top guys is always joking about how he sees different teachers correcting things even within the same class. Most of the time it has no bearing on effectiveness and is purely cosmetic.

My question would be, why is it important for that change to be made. Is it just to look good or is there a legitimate reason. For example, the position of the fist in carriage. Some styles have it near the hip while others have it just below the ribs. I can give several reasons why the second position is better and have no explanation for the first. Then you have the situation as in our basic techniques, let's say Chudan Uke (you can look it up if you want to see a photo). Here I have seen people changing the position of the fist by millimetres and to me, that is ridiculous. Another example might be the orientation of the fist when punching. Some instructors insist on a horizontal fist and some have a 'natural' one. There are reasons why the natural fist is better but some instructors 'correct' it to the horizontal position.

The first thing I would suggest is, does the change affect the technique? If not it is cosmetic. If yes, then the right position is the one which makes the technique work for you. At the end of the day the only important thing is that your technique is effective. What it looks like is almost irrelevant.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I actually enjoy it when different instructors teach the same technique differently. It presents an opportunity to understand the technique at a deeper level. Try to figure out the common principles that underlie all the variations. Try to figure out the reason for the differences. Is one variation better suited for a certain individuals body type? Is another better suited for a certain style of movement? Are there certain trade-offs that would dictate using one or another in a certain situation?

Of course, I've been lucky enough to learn from teachers who valued finding one's own interpretation of an art rather than insisting that theirs was the one true way.

If you're talking about a situation where you have two instructors in the same school giving contradictory instruction, then I don't see anything disrespectful about approaching one of them after class, explaining the situation and asking for guidance. (If you were talking about attending classes in two different schools, then the wiser approach would probably be to just work on remembering what each instructor wanted to see in their school.)

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have been in that situation before and in the end I asked both instructors to talk with each other as there seemed to be a big difference in what they wanted in a certain technique and it was confusing to me and others
I explained to each the differences in what was being instructed and said I just wanted to learn it correctly but did not understand why it was being instructed so differently
they got together and then both taught it the same way

 

[RTKDCMB]

Is there a third master you can confirm one way or the other is correct? I had a similar situation once. I taught one student one way of doing a particular technique and another instructor taught him a slightly different way. So I went to the other instructor with the student and we asked our instructor who cleared up the confusion (turned out I was right).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm struggling to learn several techniques two different ways ...

Have you considered that both methods can all be right?

For example, in most MA training, in the

- beginner level training, you want to develop "static" skill.
- intermediate level training, you want to develop "dynamic" skill.

May be between your 2 different instructors, one wants to teach you the "beginner" level skill while the other wants to teach you the "intermediate" level skill.

A simple question here. For each and every technique that you have learned, will you be able to do it in 3 different ways?

1. the beginner way,
2. the intermediate way, and
3. the advance way?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Unless you're studying a Koryu art, where perfect, exact duplication is the goal, the end result is what matters. And different people may offer slightly different versions of the same technique to try and help you achieve the most effective technique.
For example, I only have one eye, so when I'm in a right back stance, I shift my body. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to see properly. So this variation from the normal stance is a good thing, since it allows me to be effective.

 

[Rough Rider]

Thanks for the replies guys. To answer some of your questions: Both Masters are at the same school. Style or substance? Maybe both. Here are two examples:

In Koryo form, there are two places near the middle of the form where I am facing the rear and need to step around to face the front and throw an elbow. One Master says to throw an in-to-out crescent kick during the turn; the other says no kick. To me that is substantial.

During a particular Il Sushi, I strike my opponent's abdomen with a right knee and follow with a right axe kick to the back of the head (opponent bends over from the knee strike.) One Master says do not place my right foot back on the floor between strikes; the other says put it on the floor and bounce back up for the axe kick. That is probably style. I find that bouncing my foot off the floor gives me more power and control. However, keeping it up forces me to work more on my balance, which will be beneficial in the long run. (wow I never thought of that until just now as I explained it to you.)

 

[Tez3]

In Koryo form, there are two places near the middle of the form where I am facing the rear and need to step around to face the front and throw an elbow. One Master says to throw an in-to-out crescent kick during the turn; the other says no kick. To me that is substantial.

That's certainly a difference. I haven't come across an instance where the same club/school has two different ideas of a form. It makes it quite hard to know which is considered correct for gradings etc.
I would go to the chief instructor explaining that I was muddled up because I thought one instructor said to do the kick and the other didn't and need the chief instructor to help me. I tend to put the blame on myself out of politeness in situations such as this, half the time it's likely to be me anyway. You do need to know which is considered correct by the chief instructor though.

 

[Jaeimseu]

In Koryo form, there are two places near the middle of the form where I am facing the rear and need to step around to face the front and throw an elbow. One Master says to throw an in-to-out crescent kick during the turn; the other says no kick. To me that is substantial.

I don't know what version of Koryo you are doing, but there are certainly no crescent kicks in the officially recognized version of that poomse. Are you talking about the 1st Dan poomse in Kukkiwon Taekwondo?

 

[drop bear]

Learn both. Challenge is character building.

 

[Rough Rider]

I don't know what version of Koryo you are doing, but there are certainly no crescent kicks in the officially recognized version of that poomse. Are you talking about the 1st Dan poomse in Kukkiwon Taekwondo?

Yes, that Koryo. That one is my biggest concern because I've watched it on several Youtube videos and there is no crescent kick. Only one master wants to see it; the other Masters and instructors say it's wrong.

 

[Drose427]

Yes, that Koryo. That one is my biggest concern because I've watched it on several Youtube videos and there is no crescent kick. Only one master wants to see it; the other Masters and instructors say it's wrong.

if it's only one instructor, it's likely he's getting the move confused from a move in another form.

it happens to everyone.

If the majority are doing it in a completely different way, I'd practice that way, and when the other corrects you just say "yes sir" and listen. Right or wrong, he's still your senior instructor after all.

If the rest are doing it the other way, that's probably what theyll expect to see at test

 

[geezer]

if it's only one instructor, it's likely he's getting the move confused from a move in another form.

it happens to everyone.

If the majority are doing it in a completely different way, I'd practice that way, and when the other corrects you just say "yes sir" and listen. Right or wrong, he's still your senior instructor after all.

If the rest are doing it the other way, that's probably what theyll expect to see at test

Good advice. And it does happen to everyone on occasion. That's why I have a bit of a problem with any instructional system that discourages a student from respectfully asking for clarification from his instructors. If sensei/sobum/sifu so and so says to do it one way, and master so and so says to do it another, there should be a proper time and place for a student to bring this up.

This morning I was giving private instruction and my student asked me just such a question. I responded that either I was wrong, the other instructor was wrong, or perhaps there was something else going on. I told him to train the sequence both ways with me and see if he could figure it out. We worked on it for a bit and a light went on in his eyes. He was then able to explain to me that each method was useful at training different attributes.

This was a bit of a breakthrough for the student, and it wouldn't have occurred if he had been discouraged from asking questions.

Oh, and BTW, it was encouraging for me too, since like Drose said, sometimes I do simply mess up. Everyone does.

 

[jks9199]

Sometimes, two instructors will show different ways simply because there is more than one way to skin a cat. Which means you have two ways to do it... Find the one that's best for you.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

 

[Tez3]

Sometimes, two instructors will show different ways simply because there is more than one way to skin a cat. Which means you have two ways to do it... Find the one that's best for you.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

Wouldn't that be a problem though when it comes to kata/forms at grading or competition time? The OP specifically mentions being shown two different things in a form, usually it is a set pattern and if he deviates from that, following an instructors teaching he will fail or lose points?

 

[wildpsyd]

There are a couple of issues that come to mind for me while reading this thread. First, I feel that the black belt ranking system is good rough guide to interpreting the instruction two different black belts will give on any topic. In general I'd go with the higher ranking black belt as likely having the deeper perspective on a technique or issue with equally ranked black belts being both equally "right." If a 4th degree instructs one way and a 5th degree gives me different counsel, I'll at least until I have more time with the issue, be biased toward the 5th degree's opinion.

Second, when practicing form for competition, a precise and reliable recreation of the pattern is essential. Thus, if you are practicing your forms for competition or instructing students, I would imagine the crescent kick is not appropriate. But practicing forms as part of your own development as a student definitely should include "minor" or "hidden" moves. How else are you to discover your style of practicing your personal marital art? Moreover, how else to critically analyze and appreciate the pure version of the form unless one personalizes it? Robotically recreating a fixed set of moves may promote tranquility of mind but it then simultaneously can rob the expression of the form of feeling.

 

[jks9199]

Wouldn't that be a problem though when it comes to kata/forms at grading or competition time? The OP specifically mentions being shown two different things in a form, usually it is a set pattern and if he deviates from that, following an instructors teaching he will fail or lose points?

Depends. Sometimes, there are variants that are acceptable. I can't address the OP's particular program, but, for example, that case where one instructor showed to put the foot down between kicks, and the other didn't... I could see either being acceptable. In my style, we have one form that I've seen about 6 variants on; some are different punches, some are different turns (a modification to prevent turning your back on judges, for example). But the underlying principles are consistent. That's forms or kata... But as to how to do individual techniques? Sometimes there are more than one way to achieve the same goal. Kind of addresses the bigger issue, y'know?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Wouldn't that be a problem though when it comes to kata/forms at grading or competition time? The OP specifically mentions being shown two different things in a form, usually it is a set pattern and if he deviates from that, following an instructors teaching he will fail or lose points?

Depends on the significance of the variation.
In this case, it's a huge difference, since one person is adding a kick that isn't in the form in it's official description, nor in the instruction from other teachers at that school.
I'd go over their head for clarification. This does two things. It tells you what you need to do, and it gives the head of the school a chance to say "Huh? They're saying do WHAT?" and go have a talk with the instructor who is in error and correct them.
For small differences, it may not matter. An example. The ready stance for Koryo is "Tongmilgi Joonbi Seogi", or "pushing hands ready stance". The KKW-standard position for this is done with parallel vertical knifehands. Many schools do it palm forward, with the thumbs and forefingers nearly touching and forming a triangle. As our kwanjangnim says, you don't push with the knifehand. So we allow either. When I teach it, I teach it both ways, and stress that if it's being performed at another school the knifehands are the KKW-correct way to do it. But in our dojang, they can do either. Another small variation with have is that the kiap is done one the moorup kukki (knee break), while the KKW-approved version has it one technique earlier on the final arc-hand strike. Again, I teach it both ways and explain why it's different.

The versions of the Palgwae forms we teach also have small variations from the way they're shown in some of the earliest sources. I practice both the original and ours, and if a student is interested I'll teach them the originals as well.

And as I said before, there are changes that are made to improve the end result, and are specific to the individual.

 

[moonhill99]

I'm getting very frustrated in class and need some advice on how to solve the problem without being disrespectful.
Here's the situation: I go to class and Master A teaches me a new technique. I practice it and get it down pretty good. Next time I'm there, Master B is teaching. When observing me, he points out certain aspects that I'm doing incorrectly and shows me the "right" way. I go with it figuring I forgot or misunderstood what Master A showed me. As you can guess, this keeps going back and forth with each master contradicting the other.
I read in another thread that it is disrespectful to say "Master A showed me this way..." I also don't feel right going over their heads and taking it up with the Grandmaster. Right now, I'm struggling to learn several techniques two different ways and remembering who wants to see what. This is not an isolated incident.

Help?

Rough Rider why not learn both ways of doing it and pick the one you like the best or you think works the best.

It will give you more option.