Conditioning And Stuff

Gnarlie

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You guys don't really want to talk to me, so after this, I won't engage any of you 2 to 3 people.

You just want to spar.
There is nothing personal between you and I. Just your information is questionable.
The book shows all taeqeuk forms exactly as Kukkiwon and my instructor showed me, and they have Taeqeuk pal jang even stepping forward on the first move, like you have been saying is how it is done to this day.
Taegeuk. And the book does show Pal Jang stepping forward, but, for example, just in the Poomsae section, and not going into detail:

The back stances are way too long.
The front stances are way too wide.
Blocks do not block the correct height.
The described path of movements often is non-standard.
Punches are to incorrect targets.

Outside of the Poomsae section, much of the terminology used for blocks, strikes and kick is non-standard, and in most cases not terminology I've heard outside of the confines of that book. And I've heard a lot of terminology, in a lot of different places.
Assuming any of you even read it, and not just glanced at the cover online.
I read it the day it was released. Like I do with most Taekwondo publications that claim to contain current information, even if it does turn out to be non-standard.
You are just saying things. Kwonkicker doesn't kick properly, I don't know anything outside my own back yard.
So prove any of it wrong. You came in with the claim here that Cyriacus did the wrong kick and that there are two types of kick, one called narabam kick and the other called Tornado kick. As this claim appears to go against the current accepted worldwide norm ie Kukkiwon standard, the burden of proof is on you.

Likewise with your experience - if you have a wealth of experience that qualifies you to make the claims you are making, then I would be happy to hear it. I asked you for your source, I gave you mine, the burden of proof is on you. You haven't given any specific answer, so I can only assume that you got this from a book or a non-standard instructor, until you prove otherwise by stating a source.
But You give me full credit for anything that can even be remotely taken as an insult or cheap shot. using the door for balance, female flexibility, being sad about something.
Absolutely, where the shot is aimed at the person not the information.





It is, if I say it, I am bad, and if one of the 3 of you say something, it is justified and probably kinder than what I deserve.
I comment only on your information and how that information makes you come across here on the forum in terms of your experience. I am not attacking you personally, but I am questioning the validity of your argument.
It is just a few of you.

It seems like each forum has a few Guardians of whatever martial art. or they see themselves that way.

But from what I have seen, there isn't balance.
There is a difference between attacking the argument and attacking the person.
Sorry Admin, I can't keep it polite when some people keep goiter stabbing, so I am done.

Again, a shame.

Gnarlie
 

Mauthos

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I apologise up front as I am technically hijacking the thread but the question I have is sort of relevant to the topic.

Basically, not having a TKD background (main arts Kenpo and Kick boxing) why does there appear to be so many different names for kicks within TKD? For example, I had to look up what a tornado kick was as I had absolutely no idea, and whilst it isn't commonly found in kick boxing I would probably explain it as a spinning roundhouse to one of my students.

Only asking as it is something that has always interested me. Thanks :)
 

Gnarlie

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Because the actual names are Korean and exact translations are not always used. Expressions like roundhouse and wheel kick and tornado kick are purely western and are very unlikely to be used by Korean instructors. The name is not important as long as the principle is clear.

Gnarlie
 
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Cyriacus

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Like Gnarlie said, and ill add that it can be a bit... people'ified. Kinda like the boxing rear straight / cross / right hand. Or sticking to boxing, right hook / right swing. Tornado kick, *if* i remember right, is a jumping spinning round kick, or something like that. Or a turning round kick. Or a 360 round kick.
 

Gnarlie

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Here are the names for a single kick:

Tornado Kick = 360 Turning Kick = Turn Kick = 360 Dollyo Chagi = 360 Momapdollyo Chagi = Narabam = Nahli = Nahla = Spin Roundhouse = 360 Roundhouse = Spin Bit Chagi = 360 Bit Chagi = Backstep Turning Kick = Backstep Half Turning Kick = Dragon Kick = Cyclone kick = Spin Baldeung Chagi = 360 Baldeung Chagi = Eingedrehter Dollyo Chagi = Eingedrehter Baldeung Chagi

They are all based on the same principle of turn in the direction of the back, followed by some type of curved real leg kick. This is one kick, and then we have to decide whether it is jumped or not, in which case we might add 'Twleo' into the name.

The basic kicks of Kukkiwon TKD are:

Cha Olligi - Rising kick, mostly for stretching, forward or to the side
Apchagi - front kick, with the ball or the instep
Yop Chagi - side kick with the bottom of the heel or the foot knife
Milyo Chagi - push kick with the sole, ball or heel
Dwi Chagi - back kick
Dollyo Chagi - any kind of curved turning kick with the top or ball of the foot
Bandae Dollyo Chagi - reverse turning kick with the heel or the sole, leg straight or bent
Naeryo Chagi - Downwards kick, including axe kick, sometimes called 'Chikyo Chagi'
Huryo Chagi - Hooking kick
An Chagi - Inward crescent with the inside of the heel or sole
Bakkat Chagi - Outward crescent with the outside of the heel or sole
Biteureo Chagi - Twisting kick with the ball or instep

Each basic kick comes with many relatives, including spins, hybrids, modifications etc, but in terms of basic kicks, that's it. Naming only gets complicated because people want a separate name for every technique variant instead of focusing on the principle behind the kick. It could be people trying to justify their existence, making it seem like they are teaching more than they actually are. It seems to be a peculiarly western phenomenon - the korean names tend to be clear, like '360 Dollyo Chagi'.
 
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miguksaram

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gnarlie said:
...so I can only assume that you got this from a book or a non-standard instructor

I wanted to add just a little something here so that that there are no misunderstandings. When the term "non-standard instructor" is being used, it is in no mean dismissing the instructor as fake, no good, or misleading. It is simply means that the instructor has not adapted the news standards set by the KKW. There are a lot out there who would fall into this category who are great instructors.
 

Mauthos

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Thanks for taking the time to explain that mate. Really appreciate it as I have a fascination with all martial arts and it is always good to learn something knew. So basically it is naming conventions which some students and teachers may have their own favoured names for techniques on top of the, dare I say it, proper Korean naming convention. (runs for cover :))
 

Cyriacus

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Thanks for taking the time to explain that mate. Really appreciate it as I have a fascination with all martial arts and it is always good to learn something knew. So basically it is naming conventions which some students and teachers may have their own favoured names for techniques on top of the, dare I say it, proper Korean naming convention. (runs for cover :))

Fun fact: Ive heard it called a flying spinning instep kick. Probably better not to read into why. You reminded me, anyway :p
 

Gnarlie

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I wanted to add just a little something here so that that there are no misunderstandings. When the term "non-standard instructor" is being used, it is in no mean dismissing the instructor as fake, no good, or misleading. It is simply means that the instructor has not adapted the news standards set by the KKW. There are a lot out there who would fall into this category who are great instructors.

Absolutely. In no way did I mean that as an insult, and it says nothing about the person's ability as an instructor. It is about whether what they are teaching is the current world standard or not.

On a slightly different tack, I'm not so sure that the Kukkiwon really changes things all that often, I mean if you watch video footage from the 1980's of forms (see Keumgang extracts and Chil Jang near the end), it's not that different. Perhaps some details regarding stance lengths / widths, and some chamber positions, but not that much change in 30 years. Certainly not enough to warrant so many instructors claiming that 'Kukkiwon have changed something' again.

 
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Gnarlie

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Thanks for taking the time to explain that mate. Really appreciate it as I have a fascination with all martial arts and it is always good to learn something knew. So basically it is naming conventions which some students and teachers may have their own favoured names for techniques on top of the, dare I say it, proper Korean naming convention. (runs for cover :))

It's partly that, but I think it's more to do with westerners looking at things differently. We focus on detail, and that stops us from seeing the wood for the trees. We look at every technique variant as separate, when dollyo chagi is dollyo chagi, regardless of whether it's jumped, spun, stepped, reversed, countered, slipped, sidestepped, spun 540 Degrees or whatever. Dollyo chagi.

Similarly, all spinning kicks are related. Spinning dwi chagi, spinning dollyo, spinning bandae dollyo. All the same principle.

We have more than one separate westernised name for every combination of technique variants for every kick, which is absurd. A kick is a kick and can be done in many different modifications. A modification is a modification and and can be done with many different kicks. Effectively we made a matrix of kicks versus modifications and put 3 or 4 different names in each box.

Koreans typically give the kick one name, the modification one name, and match the two together as required. There are some specialised kicks that don't have names in Korean and can only be described as 'a hybrid of Apchagi and Bakkat Chagi' (called thrashing kick in English) which says much more to me than the English term 'tornado kick', which is purely abstract and contains no description of the kicking action (which is why people had to look up what it was in this thread).

It's specific to the English language too, we are obsessed with having a special word for everything, making the English vocabulary massive. In German, they tend to have lots of little word parts and make up long words based on those, so the vocabulary is smaller. It's also a lot less confusing naming kicks as they either use the Korean, or the name of the kick describes the action, which after years of naming convention confusion in English is an absolute joy!
 

Gnarlie

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Fun fact: Ive heard it called a flying spinning instep kick. Probably better not to read into why. You reminded me, anyway :p

I'm going to thing of a bunch of new names based on things that spin and see if any catch on. How about:

Helicopter kick
Blender kick
33&1/3RPM kick
Fan kick
Spiral kick
Ferris Wheel kick
Bedroom when lying down for the first time after 15 bottles of Newcastle Brown Ale kick
 

Cyriacus

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I'm going to thing of a bunch of new names based on things that spin and see if any catch on. How about:

Helicopter kick
Blender kick
33&1/3RPM kick
Fan kick
Spiral kick
Ferris Wheel kick
Bedroom when lying down for the first time after 15 bottles of Newcastle Brown Ale kick

Mm!

Upward circle kick!
Up And Turn Leg Kick!
 

Mauthos

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Thanks again for the detailed replies, makes me want to make up some names for kicks in my Kenpo classes, although with the technique names in Kenpo, I'm sure I don't need to confuse the issue futher :wink:
 

Cyriacus

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Thanks again for the detailed replies, makes me want to make up some names for kicks in my Kenpo classes, although with the technique names in Kenpo, I'm sure I don't need to confuse the issue futher :wink:

Incidentally, i used to watch Kenpo videos just to see what alternating maces of doom are (not an actual example. i just love the naming conventions :D)
 

aaradia

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Just wanted to point out that people injure themselves in all sorts of situations. Freak things happen.

We had an instructor just walking on the beach. Tore up his knee. He had to have surgery and stopped teaching. It wasn't the MA's that did him in, just a normal everyday walk on the beach.
 

Mauthos

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Yeah I can agree with that as a MA friend of mine was simply playing football, ran, came to a stop and somehow broke his leg. There was no jarring, no impact, no twisting, nothing. He literally ran, received the ball, passed the ball, stopped running and collasped a second later holding onto his leg. It was a nasty break too. Really surprised us all as he is a relatively tough kick boxer.
 

Cyriacus

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I sprained my wrist once.
So i can hear you thinking, 'okay'. I didnt get to the fun part yet :) That week, id literally been more lethargic than i had been or have been since in my life. I was knuckled down with some stuff i wanted to sort out by way of computer. And somehow, by the end of that week, i sprained my wrist. My doctor didnt believe me. I just stopped thinking about it. It was only very minor, but i literally wasnt doing ANYTHING that whole week.

Weird stuff happens sometimes. Ive decided i slept on it funny one night. Thats all ive got.
 

Dirty Dog

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I sprained my wrist once.
So i can hear you thinking, 'okay'. I didnt get to the fun part yet :) That week, id literally been more lethargic than i had been or have been since in my life. I was knuckled down with some stuff i wanted to sort out by way of computer. And somehow, by the end of that week, i sprained my wrist. My doctor didnt believe me. I just stopped thinking about it. It was only very minor, but i literally wasnt doing ANYTHING that whole week.

Weird stuff happens sometimes. Ive decided i slept on it funny one night. Thats all ive got.

So you spent a week looking at stuff on the computer and had a sore wrist after?

:rofl:
 

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