Components of The Art

[Elayna]

Hey Everyone,

I wanted to elaborate further on my previous post "Heart of The Art".
There are a few things I wanted to address in this thread...Here goes.

First I would like to define my thought on the meaning of The Art.

My personal feeling/belief is that The Art encompasses the feeling of Martial Arts. The thoughts, movements, ideals and everything within any particular style. The Art is the energy that fuels every single style out there. The Art is the "start" of all the others. The root of the tree if you will. The other styles are merley children or leafs from the parent tree. While The Art is the parent tree. And from this parent tree all martial arts, all "life" if you will stems. So therefore, when a little something of that parent goes, a little something from the "leaves" or the "style" goes too.
(I know cheesy, but tottaly serious)

Also, I would like to define my personal feeling on the 3 main components of The Art. Mind, Body and The Heart. The order having no bearing on importance.
Mind being our thoughts, ideas and so on.
Body being our physical selves. Our strength, reflexes and so on.
Heart being our emotions, concious, morals and so on.

Right now I am concentrating on the Heart of The art.
I am also going to be addressing the other 2 as well. But I wanted to finish something I started in a previous post, but with much more description and input.

Whatever might be said on this thread is in no way meant for a particular person or style. It is meant in general, so that someone somewhere going through the same thoughts or time in their life as I am will get some benefit.
I thank you for your understanding.

When I look at The Heart of The Art I see 3 main components with their own sub sections. I see
Respect/Honor
Love
Passion.

Respect...
Toward your teacher. Toward yourself. Toward all arts. Toward the orginal masters. Toward your enemy. Your weapon. Respecting all Life and all Death. Respecting all that you come in contact with.

Honor...
Toward your teacher. Toward yourself. Toward all arts. Toward the way you fight and practice. Your weapon. Toward your brothers in sisters in combat and in blood. Towards whoever you might call "family". Honoring Life and Death.

Love...
Your art. Your teacher. Yourself. Your enemy. Your weapon. Life. Everyting that makes you art. Love the feeling. Love the thought. Love the ideal and the dream.

Passion...
For your art. To learn. For life. For peace. This can also include mercy for your enemies/guilty and the innocent. Mercy for yourself. Being kind.

What I have listed is my personal assestment of the different parts of The Art. I dont think in anyway I addressed them all. The Art is something to massive and beautiful for one person to even attempt to describe it all.
This for me, is a starting point. The launch pad for much greater things.

I hope this will be of some help to someone, somewhere.

TTYL

 

[Xue Sheng]

First I would like to define my thought on the meaning of The Art.

My personal feeling/belief is that The Art encompasses the feeling of Martial Arts. The thoughts, movements, ideals and everything within any particular style. The Art is the energy that fuels every single style out there. The Art is the "start" of all the others. The root of the tree if you will. The other styles are merley children or leafs from the parent tree. While The Art is the parent tree. And from this parent tree all martial arts, all "life" if you will stems. So therefore, when a little something of that parent goes, a little something from the "leaves" or the "style" goes too.
(I know cheesy, but tottaly serious)

I am sorry, but I don't think I follow this.

What I think this means may not be what you think it means but here goes.

Are you saying all martial arts come from art?

If could you define art, you are saying the art does but not what it is.

The rest sounds very Zen by the way, do you study Aikido?

 

[Elayna]

Hehehehe
No I dont study Aikido. I did for awhile though several years back. But Thank You. Being Zen...hmmm sounds kinda....LOL

When I talk about The Art, Im not mean art like drawing or anything like that. It is very difficult to define I know. I will try and clarify. If I can. LOL.

The Art. The art of fighting. the art of understanding. The art of everything that encompasses martial arts. Art being something that flows, has beauty and something to study at.
Like the art of tying a shoe. LOL. Or the art of shopping. LOL. The same defintion but in regards to martial arts.
I hope this helps. This is the best way that I can think of to describe it. I will continue to think on it and see if I can come up with a better definition.
Thanks for pointing this out to me Xue.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hehehehe
No I dont study Aikido. I did for awhile though several years back. But Thank You. Being Zen...hmmm sounds kinda....LOL

When I talk about The Art, Im not mean art like drawing or anything like that. It is very difficult to define I know. I will try and clarify. If I can. LOL.

The Art. The art of fighting. the art of understanding. The art of everything that encompasses martial arts. Art being something that flows, has beauty and something to study at.
Like the art of tying a shoe. LOL. Or the art of shopping. LOL. The same defintion but in regards to martial arts.
I hope this helps. This is the best way that I can think of to describe it. I will continue to think on it and see if I can come up with a better definition.
Thanks for pointing this out to me Xue.

Thanks for the response

It appears you have taken on a rather large definition much like trying to find the unified theory.

To me the root of martial arts is the mind, thinking if you will. But one could also argue its root is a philosophical one as well since many came from the philosophical side of Taoism or Buddhism. But then you run smack into some of the jitsu styles of Japan which were made for war and later got combined with philosophy. It could also be argued that the root is physical as well.

I wish you luck in finding the definition. :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Um... I believe that concentrating in just one area defeats the art. Your physical, emotional, mental, perceptual, and spiritual fitnesses are all tied, and a lacking in one creates a lack in the others.
Sean

 

[Xue Sheng]

Um... I believe that concentrating in just one area defeats the art. Your physical, emotional, mental, perceptual, and spiritual fitnesses are all tied, and a lacking in one creates a lack in the others.
Sean

If this is to me, I am not saying concentration, I am saying the mind control everything you do including physical movement as well as everything else you listed.

If this was not to me, I will shut up now, bow my head and go skulking back to my corner.

 

[Elayna]

Touch of Death and Xue...

your responses are very valid. To try to describe The Art in a whole is i believe impossible. As I state in my first post. Also...I intend to address both the mind and body aspect of The Art. I just wanted to finish something I started in a previous post.
I firmly believe that The Art needs to have a perfect balance to be everything that it needs to be. Right now I feel addressing the Heart of The Art is important as my personal feeling being it has been put on the back burner by many people. But I also feel that the mind and body should also be on the front burner. All 3 burning together. LOL.

Brother John made a wonderful post in regards to training both physically and mentally and emotionally.

Even though I talk alot about The Heart I know how important training wtih your body is. It has save me, and my family many times.
I had a stalker once that had to be dealt with with what my and my husband have learned through martial arts. This is not the only time I have had to defend myself against enemies. IF i had not learned martial arts...I would be dead. And this is where my desire for peace and learning more of the heart of the art comes.
Through more threads and post I hope to elaborate my thoughts more so that everyone here on this site and people just popping in to see, will get something out of it. Not just from The Heart, but The Body and The Mind.

Everyones responses to my threads helps me more and more. Thinking of new thoughts, ideas and prespectives. Respects to you all.

TTYL

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I think part of the issue could be the word "Art". I really don't that art is the word we should be using. What are we creating? I've heard some people say there is the self expression available in forms, but isn't there a right way to practice kata? I think Dragger and Smith had it right to use the term Combatives instead of Martial arts. Yes, we have to adapt the various motions to our own bodies, but there is no art in that.

Elayna, my question is, what is this Art you keep referring too? If you answer that, you might also answer your other questions.

Jeff

 

[Elayna]

Jeff...
Wow what a question to put forth. A very difficult one to answer. And honestly I dont know if I can give the question justice. But I will attempt it. I also imagine that a year from now I will have more to add to it. So I hope that my current thought/defintion will help.

Martial Art.
Martial...I think we can all agree that it is the physical combative part of Martial Art.
Art...creation/creating.

Think a sculpture. A destructive art. Clay flying everywhere. It getting torn to pieces when it doesnt look right. The sculptor being all ragged, sleep deprived and starving so that he can finish this masterpiece he has pictured in his head. A crazy creating/destructive lust for something grand/beautiful and perfect to the sculptor. And out of this chaos comes Michaelangelos "David".
But...Its still not enough.
From destruction comes creation. Martial(destruction) Art(creation). Even when a painter is painting. In order to make the Mona Lisa, Da Vinci had to destroy a perfectly white canvas.
Destruction for perfection. Destruction for beauty.

So Martial Arts is a balance between these two that can create masterpieces. Human masterpieces. For artist it takes a lifetime to create these arts of perfection. Even to the day they die they still are searching for that one creation that they themselves can look upon and say....Perfect.

That is the search for the art. When humans can look upon a creation(themselves) and say...Perfect. The great painters of art, and the great masters of martial arts never gave up. Neither should we.
I hope this helps.
TTYL

 

[Brother John]

I think part of the issue could be the word "Art". I really don't that art is the word we should be using. What are we creating? I've heard some people say there is the self expression available in forms, but isn't there a right way to practice kata? I think Dragger and Smith had it right to use the term Combatives instead of Martial arts. Yes, we have to adapt the various motions to our own bodies, but there is no art in that.

Elayna, my question is, what is this Art you keep referring too? If you answer that, you might also answer your other questions.

Jeff

Jeff, You bring up a good point, something to really think about.

I understand what you are getting at with "there is a right way to do Kata", but really....there's also still room for self expression too, I think. It's sort of like dance. IF dance is an art (and I know it is, my wife is a dancer) and they don't "create" anything but some very aesthetically pleasing movements....then we are practicing an 'art' as well. There is a right and a wrong way to execute the "lambada"; trust me......if you've seen an expert do it and a novice do it....there's a HUGE difference and there is most definitely a WRONG way. But they also express themselves.

What about singing? It's an art where nothing is produced but sounds. Imagine a singer singing the National Anthem (USA)...they must get the words right, in the correct tempo, with emphasis at the right place and to the right notes/pitch...etc. YET...each performance is unique and shows something from w/in the performer. They express themselves in their own unique way; through a song reproduced in the correct manner.

"Art" isn't about the production of a tangible thing, but the expression of an intangible emotional content. (I underlined that because it's THE thesis, or crux, of my post) It's also very intellectual, the aesthetic properties of each art are indicative of that art and seldom cross lines in more than maybe a few ways. What makes a well performed "Ode to Joy" (Beethoven) pleasing is not the same qualities that makes the mona-lisa pleasing or what makes a well made soup enjoyable......but they're each an artistic expression.
So is the execution of our arts...or at least, I think they should be. Imagine if everyone executed every kata in exactly the same way, cookie-cutter kata...one after the other.
Then imagine the Masters, the ones you Really look upto for their excellence: They've made the kata 'intimate', it's their own....they've kept company with those kata to the point that they've transcended the pattern itself in a way. THAT's what inspires the white - black belts to want to be like them...
but what we really reacted too wasn't the pattern of movements, but the self expression that they carried. The pattern is crucial...you are Right! But without putting ourselves INTO that pattern----it'd be pretty darn flat I think.

..but then....some people like "Dogs playing Pool"...


Have a great day man....
Your Brother
John

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I tend to think of Martial arts as more of a craft than an art. Think of blacksmithing. Yes there is a little room for self expression, but the essence is more utilitarian (hopefully won't have to use it much) though. To use your cooking analogy Brother John, most people who cook don't do it as an art. Once again, there may be a little self expression involved, but save for the extraordinary few, IE., Thomas Keller, Charlie Trotter, cooking has the more workmanlike quality of a craft.

Have there been artists in the martial arts? Yes there has. However, I think they have been few and far between.

Jeff

Oh, and I'm more partial to Dogs Playing Poker!!

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Just wanted to add one more quick thing. I'm not trying to be argumentative for arguments sake. If we are looking at defining something, it'd be best to have a clear understanding of what we are defining.

Jeff

 

[King]

Hey guys you have a cool discussion going on in here and I just wanted to share something. My current master has a pretty interesting definition of his art.

"When you take something ugly and turn into something beautiful - that is art." -Ajahn Suchart

In the beginning you are taught basic skills like punches, kicks, holds and throws. If you demonstrate these skills without much practice they would most likely feel and look awkward. But over time and constant practice you build upon these skills. Then one day while you are practicing somebody will come to you and say "wow, you look amazing". Therefore I believe that when you can execute your punches, kicks, holds and throws gracefully, effectively and effortlessly then you have created art.

Heh, sorry for rambling. Hope I made some sort of sense.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Hey guys you have a cool discussion going on in here and I just wanted to share something. My current master has a pretty interesting definition of his art.

"When you take something ugly and turn into something beautiful - that is art." -Ajahn Suchart

In the beginning you are taught basic skills like punches, kicks, holds and throws. If you demonstrate these skills without much practice they would most likely feel and look awkward. But over time and constant practice you build upon these skills. Then one day while you are practicing somebody will come to you and say "wow, you look amazing". Therefore I believe that when you can execute your punches, kicks, holds and throws gracefully, effectively and effortlessly then you have created art.

Heh, sorry for rambling. Hope I made some sort of sense.

Good post, and not at all rambling.

However, I don't think that's the case. I would agree with that about certain founders. We however are really just using what they already made aesthetically pleasing. Would you consider a painter who can replicate a Monet stroke for stroke an artist if he didn't also create his own works?

Personally I think, by way of mediocre translation, using the word "art" in Martial Arts has led many to infer that there is a deeper meaning to being a practitioner of the combative systems. Don't get me wrong, I think they can be a wonderful vehicle for self improvement. But an art? It would take a lot to convince me of that.

Jeff

 

[King]

Would you consider a painter who can replicate a Monet stroke for stroke an artist if he didn't also create his own works?

By all means yes. I think re-creating something stroke for stroke is much harder than creating something original. I think art is taking something foreign and presenting it in a way so that people can appreciate and relate to it. That's why it inspires people to want to learn how to paint, sculpt or take martial arts. With hopes to reproduce such results and/or better.

However in the art world there are people who take old used toiles, turn them upside down, give it a pretty name and call it art. I tend to draw lines with it's definition as well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I tend to think of Martial arts as more of a craft than an art. Think of blacksmithing. Yes there is a little room for self expression, but the essence is more utilitarian (hopefully won't have to use it much) though. To use your cooking analogy Brother John, most people who cook don't do it as an art. Once again, there may be a little self expression involved, but save for the extraordinary few, IE., Thomas Keller, Charlie Trotter, cooking has the more workmanlike quality of a craft.

Have there been artists in the martial arts? Yes there has. However, I think they have been few and far between.

Jeff

Oh, and I'm more partial to Dogs Playing Poker!!

Good post, and not at all rambling.

However, I don't think that's the case. I would agree with that about certain founders. We however are really just using what they already made aesthetically pleasing. Would you consider a painter who can replicate a Monet stroke for stroke an artist if he didn't also create his own works?

Personally I think, by way of mediocre translation, using the word "art" in Martial Arts has led many to infer that there is a deeper meaning to being a practitioner of the combative systems. Don't get me wrong, I think they can be a wonderful vehicle for self improvement. But an art? It would take a lot to convince me of that.

Jeff

I agree with you, there are some benefits that can come from training martial arts that are not just physical, but it is all part of the training.

I feel that many people attempt to add their own views of the metaphysical to it in order for martial arts to better fit what they are looking for. However if you want a general definition it is in my opinion as well more a craft or a skill than an art.

But by no means am I saying this is it. From that general definition the practitioner adds his/her own parts to the definition in order to make it less general and more applicable to them.

 

[Elayna]

Hey Guys,

This thread has definatly taken an interesting turn. The defintion of The Art part of Martial Art.
Honestly I dont think we will ever truly have a clear definition of it you know. Thats why I said that I think it is impossible to say what it is.
We can look into the journals and writings of the original masters of the art, and get a basis, but for each individual person, it will still translate as something different then the person sitting next to them. Thanks to the unique personality of every person on earth. I see this as a good thing.
But what makes the difference is if we are not only willing to see our point of view on it, but also explore and consider others. Not neccissarily agree or siding with them just considering it. Which I think has been wonderfully accomplished on this thread. And many others.

My orginal post was not meant to concentrate on the definition of the art, because that is too big of a thing to really describe. But rather to concentrate on the underlying things, that in my opinion have gotten a little out of whack.
Over the thousand or so years "martial arts" has been in existence we have yet to agree among the arts, the teachers and the students what it really means. Why is this?? Is this because the orginial "martial arts" makers/masters were so unclear? I honestly dont think so. I think it is rather, like many of you have said. We make it what we want to make it.
Some like to think of it strictly as a "killing" or "combatitive" art. While others tend to want to think of it as a "spritual" or "enlightening" art. And to me this is a balance. A balance that i think is often unseen, but none the less of a balance.
Now, if only these 2 sides, could be among each other without...the negative things put into it you know. Of course i see what Im saying, and almost impossible task. But still one that I think is worthy of aspiring too.
This is what I am trying to get across, in my dorky round about way. LOL.
And for me yes, I tend to be the "spirtual" type of the martial arts. But, believe me when I say...I was once the "combative" type of the martial arts. It didnt suit my personality. So...here I am now.
I believe that whatever suits your personality you should do. Just like we are told to find careers that we love and enjoy, not just a career to make money. Well the same with martial arts. Who cares if others dont agree. Who cares really you know. If you are happy with it then be happy with it. But also be happy that others are happy with an art that is different from yours. A 2 way street.
Anyways....Im rambiling.
TTYL....

 

[SFC JeffJ]

By all means yes. I think re-creating something stroke for stroke is much harder than creating something original. I think art is taking something foreign and presenting it in a way so that people can appreciate and relate to it.

True, it can take a very high level of technical proficiency, but have your really created anything by doing that? Have you pushed the boundaries of your medium by copying what has already been done? As far as combatives are concerned, hasn't it already been done many times over?

Jeff

 

[Brother John]

Just wanted to add one more quick thing. I'm not trying to be argumentative for arguments sake. If we are looking at defining something, it'd be best to have a clear understanding of what we are defining.

Jeff

No doubt Jeff!
I like the view of "Craftsmanship" too.

Have a good one
Your Brother
John

 

[lenatoi]

I think I understand part of what you are saying elayna. We do make whatever we do ours. I see that calling it a martial ART is applicable for more than one reason. First because of the adaptabilty. And next because of mans natural tendancy to make and surround himself with beauty. Consequently, the movements you use daily become an art.