They make me feel uncoordinated! It's tough to get the hang of them (for me at least).
I think their awesome! You can pop off 5 or 6 miles in no time with them. Get off of the machine dripping wet with sweat and know you had a good work out.
OP
Kenpomachine
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #23
Originally posted by Sigung86
Please re-read the "whole" post KM!
Sorry I missquote you, Dan :asian:
It was meant for
in Doug's msg.
Lucía
Dan seems to be a good guy and Mr. C likes him so I'll bring this up so Dan can put the rumor to rest.
After I left the Tracy HQ I later learned that one of the successful Tracy business tips is to book multiple private lessons at one time so that you can start Doug off with something and have him work on it, go to Bob, start off Jim... and rotate like a circuit so that you are getting paid for 3+ half hours simultaneously. I have heard this number as 8 simultaneous lessons, but I just don't understand how that could work.
When I heard this it made me think that may have been what was going on wth this guy. I'm sure Dan can kill this rumor and set us straight which is why I brought it up in response to your question.
And again, my experience was with one guy, one day so there are any number of explanations. I do want to hear how your visit turns out and now that I know Dan is a Tracy guy I may even email him to ask about other stuff I've heard. Like I may have said earlier, for some reason I can remember bashing on Tracy stuff at some point in history, but I am not sure why because the school I started off with was really Heavily influenced by both Tracy business and teaching practices. They called themselves descendants of Ed Parker but they techniques they taught were Tracy techniques and their business model was Tracy based as well I think.
I'm only putting this up to
a) answer your question
b) give someone like Dan who really knows something a chance to clear this up for me and everyone else
Good luck and keep me posted and email me next week to see if I ticked Dan off and got killed by a flame.
OP
RCastillo
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- Thread Starter
- #25
Now that you're bringing this up, and maybe Dan can help. Where do the Parker techniques/forms end, and Tracy material takes over? I'v been wondering about that lately.
I'd ask the Goldendragon, but he 's on sabatical?
I'd ask the Goldendragon, but he 's on sabatical?
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
They don't end, the techniques and methodology of delivery were always Ed Parkers. The difference is...... when the Tracy's left Ed Parker to pursue their own financial adventure (opening up kenpo franchises everywhere & developing their own assn.), they took with them the knowledge that they had acquired at the time.
However, they were not privy to any of Ed Parker's new innovations, increased knowledge and expansion of the Kenpo system as it continued over the next 21 or so years. Ed Parker did in fact re-name his system to American Kenpo in the 80's to distance himself from his original works (and what the Tracy's call Kenpo) as the updated and evolved "AK" is much more complete and detailed by comparison. They are in fact the same "System" but must be viewed as from different eras. The Tracy's as the older version, and now AK as the new improved system.
AK has everything and more that the old original material had but streamlined and improved. More of the "why's" are now available. This is not to say that the original techniques or forms that are now practiced by the Tracy's are "no good" but rather some what out dated in knowledge. Most of the forms are the same, the execution is the key to how the movements are delivered and explained which from my experience is not known by mainline Tracy's due to no contact or updates from the founder of the forms and system Ed Parker. Today, many are updating their material due to the exposure to many of the AK seniors that share with others as well as the internet which closes the information and communications gap.
:asian:
OP
Kenpomachine
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- Thread Starter
- #27
Originally posted by cdhall
Good luck and keep me posted and email me next week to see if I ticked Dan off and got killed by a flame.
Well, I can send you some rain there to kill that flame
But I can't still understand how rotating among "private" classes is any different to having the instructir giving personal attention to a student in a group class. At least mine knows how everybody's doing most of the time in class.
For me, a private class is to have the instructor alone for me for a certain period of time, full attention, with no other messing around. But maybe is a cultural difference between private meaning here in Spain and there...
Certainly, we cannot think the whole of Tracy's practitioners and instructors behave the same, so I'll continue thinking they're all good people. A tall person does not make the whole group he belongs to tall too, does he?
Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Well, I can send you some rain there to kill that flame
But I can't still understand how rotating among "private" classes is any different to having the instructir giving personal attention to a student in a group class.
I agree with you that it is not. When I teach I work with each student personally when I introduce the material and when I get back to them to check it.
Maybe I don't need to do this, it is hard to do in a big class.
But you are right. Keep a positive outlook and get with Mr. C if you suspect anything fishy.
OP
Kenpomachine
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- Thread Starter
- #30
Sure your students appreciate your efforts with them very much
That talks of you really well:asian: :asian:
Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Sure your students appreciate your efforts with them very much
That talks of you really well:asian: :asian:
Thank you. This does make the classes run a bit long, but I think that both of my teachers did this. I know my first one did. My advanced classes with Mr. Duffy are almost private lessons anyway, there are less than 5 of us almost all the time.
It would speak better of me if someone else were saying it though, but of course I agree with you and I think they appreciate it as well.
OP
RCastillo
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #32
Originally posted by cdhall
What he said.
More clarification needed here. For example, the techniques that go to a certain level, where do techniques stop, as far as what Parker created. (The way the techniques were assembled)
Or, are you saying that everything Tracys has in all techniques , kata, were created by SGM Parker. (Up to 5th Black)
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
First of all Doug, I don't get all that pissed at anybody all that often... You have to be a real dimwit to incurr my ire, and there aren't too many of those out here... Thanks be to Heaven!:lol:
Dennis is pretty much right in his definitions and so on... Tracy's teaches the whole techniques when it is taught, whereas the EPAK Method is to teach the fundamental part of the technique, then add the frosting later as extensions. About 15 years ago, an interview with Al Tracy created quite a furor when he declared that an EPAK Black Belt was the equivalent of a Tracy Blue Belt ( I believe that was his claim). He was technically, if not really, right in that the techniques that are taught up to fifth Black including the extensions... are taught completely at a much earlier level... We then go on to other techniques. But! He left out a number of other factors that would make that claim patently false, if not somewhat misinformed.
There is a very large divergence in how the two systems are taught, and I will not vouch for one, necessarily, being better than the other. It is down to a matter of personal taste. How you want to get from point a to point b. I acutally, like both systems very much. Tracy People who badmouth EPAK are doing so from a base of ignorance, likewise EPAK people who slam on Tracy"ites" do the same. Both deliver a very tremendous amount of fighting/self defense capability. Both are immediately useful, and both are imminently effective. What more do you need?
The difference is the delivery of the knowledge involved and the way that it is disseminated. We used to, on occasion, laugh at the EPAK Analysis Paralysis... AFter all, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick... Very few of the angles of this, that and the other were really definable, nor were they necessary when in fact, anybody could simply learn the motions... Again... A platform of ignorance... I find, personally, after exposure to Dennis and some other fine American Kenpoists, that even though we don't always talk the same language, we still understand one another... Sort of like Brits and Americans being two people divided by a common language. :lol:
As to private lessons... I've never done multiple private lessons in my life. Nor do I believe that Al Tracy ever condoned that. I do imagine, and I could be wrong, that the people who do things like that are simply greedy... And not too terribly concerned with quality... Nor value for money... You pay for privates and privates are what you get.
Please, all of you, feel free to ask me questions... I think you have found, in the past, that I am a reasonable thinking person, except for that one time in Philadelphia! :lol:
I will do my best to always be truthful, fair, and as unbiased as possible.
Take care,
Dan Farmer
Dennis is pretty much right in his definitions and so on... Tracy's teaches the whole techniques when it is taught, whereas the EPAK Method is to teach the fundamental part of the technique, then add the frosting later as extensions. About 15 years ago, an interview with Al Tracy created quite a furor when he declared that an EPAK Black Belt was the equivalent of a Tracy Blue Belt ( I believe that was his claim). He was technically, if not really, right in that the techniques that are taught up to fifth Black including the extensions... are taught completely at a much earlier level... We then go on to other techniques. But! He left out a number of other factors that would make that claim patently false, if not somewhat misinformed.
There is a very large divergence in how the two systems are taught, and I will not vouch for one, necessarily, being better than the other. It is down to a matter of personal taste. How you want to get from point a to point b. I acutally, like both systems very much. Tracy People who badmouth EPAK are doing so from a base of ignorance, likewise EPAK people who slam on Tracy"ites" do the same. Both deliver a very tremendous amount of fighting/self defense capability. Both are immediately useful, and both are imminently effective. What more do you need?
The difference is the delivery of the knowledge involved and the way that it is disseminated. We used to, on occasion, laugh at the EPAK Analysis Paralysis... AFter all, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick... Very few of the angles of this, that and the other were really definable, nor were they necessary when in fact, anybody could simply learn the motions... Again... A platform of ignorance... I find, personally, after exposure to Dennis and some other fine American Kenpoists, that even though we don't always talk the same language, we still understand one another... Sort of like Brits and Americans being two people divided by a common language. :lol:
As to private lessons... I've never done multiple private lessons in my life. Nor do I believe that Al Tracy ever condoned that. I do imagine, and I could be wrong, that the people who do things like that are simply greedy... And not too terribly concerned with quality... Nor value for money... You pay for privates and privates are what you get.
Please, all of you, feel free to ask me questions... I think you have found, in the past, that I am a reasonable thinking person, except for that one time in Philadelphia! :lol:
I will do my best to always be truthful, fair, and as unbiased as possible.
Take care,
Dan Farmer
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
No it is not that easy. To get hold of the real picture you would need to work thru a couple of belts and examine what is taught and compare the similarities and differences........ this will be enlightening for you I'm sure. Hard to do any other way. You need to get into the meat of the material.
A great majority of the techniques are similar..... the difference is often times in the actual application...... many "look" to the eye identical, but when the explanation comes out.... a great difference in the end result.
The rearrangement concept was also learned and utilized by Al Tracy and he structured many techniques himself. Even though they may be different...... they still have the "skeletal structure" of Ed Parker's original concepts, design, flow, and application. Al Tracy was exposed to these ideas and his learning period with Ed Parker. So there are many "Tracy only" techniques in their system but you can still tell the root of where they came from based upon the body movement and striking patterns which are unique to Kenpo.
Dan is close in his understanding but off base in some areas. He points at the "Delivery of knowledge" which is partially correct, but also there is much knowledge missing from the Tracy's curriculum....... it is more physical or sequence oriented vs. knowledgeable based, not saying that they don't understand to some degree about the movements just not the overall depth.
There are parties on both sides that are grossly misinformed! Too many AK guys as Dan says are "bookworms" and can't really effectively make any of the material work, likewise many in the other camp are very physical but lack current technology that would make them even more powerful and faster during execution not to mention a more informed instructor.
Even at its worst...... Kenpo is a super art!! Which is one of the unique aspects of it. Even when not done to its finest it is still a lot better than some arts out there......... but then again, it all depends upon the individual effort and skill applied.
:asian:
Mr. Castillo,
I am not familiar enough with the Tracy stuff to comment intelligently and Mr. C has covered everything I would have said if I knew enough to say it!
Besides, if I were trying to compose an answer for you I'd probably call him and check my facts.
Mr. C's quote reminds me of Jonathan Frakes' quote about Star Trek the Next Generation several years ago. He said "When it's good, it's the best show on Television. And when its bad, it's still very good." Or something very close to that.
Naturally I think Mr. C is right about the comparisons between Tracy and Parker and this may be because much of what I know about it comes from him directly or indirectly anyway.
From my experience with Mr. Swan, we had techniques there that now seem to me to be poor imitations of stuff Mr. Duffy got later from Mr. Parker and I think this is just an example of 1960 Parker Kenpo vs 1980 Parker Kenpo. And I have seen and read about other Tracy techniques that seem to be developed as Mr. C described, so that is all I know.
I have had some of both and it is like Microwave lasagna vs homemade. Technically they may be the same thing, but one is so much better. If I'm being invited over for dinner, I'll take the homemade stuff since they both require the same effort from me to partake of them.
I'm also glad I can't easily upset Dan. Thanks Dan.
I must say again that this particular website is an excellent resource for learning stuff like this. I am sure that if I walked into a Tracy school that I could not find this stuff out in 30mins but here I have Mr. C and Dan covering the topic pretty well.
Mr. C needs to set up a PayPal account and take donations on his site. He gives out a lot of stuff. Thanks Mr. C.
If I can help shed light anywhere I will, but I don't know much more about Tracy vs Parker and I agree with what Mr. C has said.
Mr. Castillo, I thought you had access to Mr. C for lessons? You should bring him down to Corpus when he swings into Central Texas for his next seminar and let him teach a seminar at your school. He could maybe show 2-3 EPAK techniques with Extensions so you and your guys can see how they are taught and then maybe he could just take questions and examine some of your stuff.
It would be a very, very valuable exercise. He did a Kenpo Tools seminar at our camp in 2001 that I found to be maybe the best seminar I had ever been to and I have been taking seminars and going to camps since 1985. And it would be a blast.
And I won't take my usual commission. :rofl:
And if you guys don't stop calling me Mr. Hall, I'm going to get all weird. Some of you out rank me by about 5 stripes in 2 arts!
I guess cdhall, or Doug will be fine if you don't want to use my "handle" or whatever we use here. Alias? Nickname? Login? Member ID? Whatever it is. I let the guys call me Mr. Hall at the studio because I'm the 3rd seniormost student and Mr. Duffy likes instructors to be address that way, but it is weird having you guys call me that. I guess though that if I weren't in Kenpo and we were all out somewhere we'd all be Mr. and Sir, so maybe I should just adapt and overcome?
OK. Back to your regularly scheduled programming. :asian:
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
OK Gents. I was under the impression that the intent of this thread was to help a poster with some inisights into Tracy vs Ryukyu. I then offered to assist with answering questions that people have regarding Tracy Karate.
Doug and Dennis ... I did not intend, nor will I participate in, a discussion that turns into who's system is bigger and better than who. I was under the impression that I was working toward helping to dispel the myths and the differences that often time lead to bad feelings between the AK folk and the Tracy folks. Not a question of who has what right.
Battering at my icons with your icons does not really solve any of the issues. Telling me and other Tracy people that what you have is bigger and better doesn't really prove that it is.
What we have here is two different yet successful paths toward the same goal, that being, to successfully defend oneself in a life life threatening situation. Some people do not feel the need to Analyze or intellectualize to the depth that American Kenpo has done so. It is not a bad thing that American Kenpo does that. What is bad is when you try to turn a thread into what this one appears to be devolving to.
Sorry... I'm not mad Doug, but you do seem somewhat intent on being there to back everything that Dennis says and clear your communications through him. You also seem to be intent on making sure that everyone knows that you do not think very much of Tracy Karate. Well Dang Doug! We know it already. Further, Dennis knows me well enough to know that if I were mad I would have been chewing and there would have been no question in your mind.
That is not my intent. These types of posts that intentionally badger people not of your belief system and of your hallucination of reality do nothing to create the unity that we all seem to be trying to pay lip service to. The prevailing posts from Dennis, and Doug tend to smack, ever so slightly, of insecurity.
That being said, I don't believe I will post on this issue again. Nor will I answer questions on this forum regarding differences, nor will I participate in who is better rants. I will, however, be more than happy to answer any private emails that you may wish to send to me.
[email protected]
Take care,
Dan Farmer
Doug and Dennis ... I did not intend, nor will I participate in, a discussion that turns into who's system is bigger and better than who. I was under the impression that I was working toward helping to dispel the myths and the differences that often time lead to bad feelings between the AK folk and the Tracy folks. Not a question of who has what right.
Battering at my icons with your icons does not really solve any of the issues. Telling me and other Tracy people that what you have is bigger and better doesn't really prove that it is.
What we have here is two different yet successful paths toward the same goal, that being, to successfully defend oneself in a life life threatening situation. Some people do not feel the need to Analyze or intellectualize to the depth that American Kenpo has done so. It is not a bad thing that American Kenpo does that. What is bad is when you try to turn a thread into what this one appears to be devolving to.
Sorry... I'm not mad Doug, but you do seem somewhat intent on being there to back everything that Dennis says and clear your communications through him. You also seem to be intent on making sure that everyone knows that you do not think very much of Tracy Karate. Well Dang Doug! We know it already. Further, Dennis knows me well enough to know that if I were mad I would have been chewing and there would have been no question in your mind.
That is not my intent. These types of posts that intentionally badger people not of your belief system and of your hallucination of reality do nothing to create the unity that we all seem to be trying to pay lip service to. The prevailing posts from Dennis, and Doug tend to smack, ever so slightly, of insecurity.
That being said, I don't believe I will post on this issue again. Nor will I answer questions on this forum regarding differences, nor will I participate in who is better rants. I will, however, be more than happy to answer any private emails that you may wish to send to me.
[email protected]
Take care,
Dan Farmer
I don't know what got Dan's attention but I'll recap here so everyone knows my position.
A) I had 7yrs experience with what was probably a heavily Tracy-derived system and I liked it then
B) I have about 11yrs in an EPAK system and I like it better now
C) I have never purposefully compared the two in any depth so I can't really tell anyone how stacks up vs the other
D) Mr. C knows EPAK better than I do and I'm trying to defer Mr. Castillo to him instead of me for this reason
E) Dan knows Tracy stuff better than I do and as far as I know he is the most experienced Tracy guy here so if I have a question about Tracy stuff I will ask him myself (as I would ask Mr. C about EPAK) and I would encourage others to do the same (and not ask me directly anyway. At least not first.)
F) I don't know about Comparing Ryukyu and Tracys so maybe I should not have posted anything in the first place
G) I like both Mr. C and Dan and I think they like each other as well
H) I'm not insecure. I qualified for the AOK Texas State Championships in 3 divisions last year (took Regional first place in two of them) so I know I can stack up pretty well against a bunch of other styles and fighters. Dan caught me off guard with this one, if anyone looks insecure I'd say it was him. I must assume he took something I wrote very differently from what I meant.
I) Although Dan is not mad at me, I am very disappointed that he seems to have misunderstood some of my posting. I will contact him to be sure I know what he thought I said. I hope most of my posts are internally consistent so that my intent is clear from what I said. That is why they tend to be long posts. I don't want anyone to think I was veiling any threats or anything, I try to say what I mean and demonstrate how/why I think that. I thought I did this by saying I'd been to Tracy's HQ 1 time. I even confirmed that Dan was right in that you can't generalize too much based on one experience.
J) Naturally there will be differences of opinion all the time, but I don't see a problem with that as long as everyone is courteous and respectful. Someone call me out here if you see something I did that was disrespectful and I'll apologize or clarify what I did.
I'm going to go email Dan. I am confused about what is going on.
A) I had 7yrs experience with what was probably a heavily Tracy-derived system and I liked it then
B) I have about 11yrs in an EPAK system and I like it better now
C) I have never purposefully compared the two in any depth so I can't really tell anyone how stacks up vs the other
D) Mr. C knows EPAK better than I do and I'm trying to defer Mr. Castillo to him instead of me for this reason
E) Dan knows Tracy stuff better than I do and as far as I know he is the most experienced Tracy guy here so if I have a question about Tracy stuff I will ask him myself (as I would ask Mr. C about EPAK) and I would encourage others to do the same (and not ask me directly anyway. At least not first.)
F) I don't know about Comparing Ryukyu and Tracys so maybe I should not have posted anything in the first place
G) I like both Mr. C and Dan and I think they like each other as well
H) I'm not insecure. I qualified for the AOK Texas State Championships in 3 divisions last year (took Regional first place in two of them) so I know I can stack up pretty well against a bunch of other styles and fighters. Dan caught me off guard with this one, if anyone looks insecure I'd say it was him. I must assume he took something I wrote very differently from what I meant.
I) Although Dan is not mad at me, I am very disappointed that he seems to have misunderstood some of my posting. I will contact him to be sure I know what he thought I said. I hope most of my posts are internally consistent so that my intent is clear from what I said. That is why they tend to be long posts. I don't want anyone to think I was veiling any threats or anything, I try to say what I mean and demonstrate how/why I think that. I thought I did this by saying I'd been to Tracy's HQ 1 time. I even confirmed that Dan was right in that you can't generalize too much based on one experience.
J) Naturally there will be differences of opinion all the time, but I don't see a problem with that as long as everyone is courteous and respectful. Someone call me out here if you see something I did that was disrespectful and I'll apologize or clarify what I did.
I'm going to go email Dan. I am confused about what is going on.
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
No that was not my intent either.
Actually I was responding more to Ricardo and using you as a springboard (as I agree with many of your statements) not totally disagreeing with what you said but offering my point of view so as to help understand the differences that I see.
It was not an issue of "good or bad", or who is better, just the differences. We already have our own opinions, and could change them anytime, if we wish.
I wasn't trying to batter icons. (what's an icon?)
Yes, I was in a Tracy system for 8 years so I have had experience in both systems. I did just fine for those years and developed decent fighting skills as well as form, but once given the opportunity to Study directly with Mr. Parker and learn from him the exact differences and understand the history, wow, did I have my eyes opened. So, yes, you could say that I am a little prejudiced by what was revealed to me, but that is also why I don't mind sharing those lessons with others, that they might see as well. That is my intent. Touchy I realize, but with no malice.
I agree with you that all people don't feel the "need" for additional knowledge or canalization as well, but when someone asks about it, I will discuss the issues from my point of view with them.
Shame on you for even thinking that. I wouldn't do that........ I consider you a friend and ally. Now Doug on the other hand is on his own. lol
I can't speak for CD "Doug" Hall but was not trying to badger, or goad you at all....... (I'd rather do that on the phone, for a quicker response...LOL)
:asian:
OP
RCastillo
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #39
I ain't no SPRINGBOARD!
My back ain't so good. But my biceps are MASSIVE PYTHONS BROTHER!
With apologies to Hollywood Hulk Hogan!
My back ain't so good. But my biceps are MASSIVE PYTHONS BROTHER!
With apologies to Hollywood Hulk Hogan!
Originally posted by RCastillo
...But my biceps are MASSIVE PYTHONS BROTHER!...
What!! Ricardo with massive biceps.
O.K. now I'm hurt.
