Community sports...

[Andrew Green]

Exactly! (More well put than my post!) Folks who train like that understand "the trick" but not the concepts & ideas behind them. Why is that important? So that you can go beyond what you learn in the video.

Which is learnt through sparring those techniques, lots.

And this can be done without a formal club, just with a group of like minded guys.

Going back to pool, if I spend all my time learning shoots out of a book I will suck, unless I put in a lot of time at a table making them work in games. In fact you can get rather good at the game in this way. If you can find a top level guy to help you out you will likely get there faster though.

I bet you'd get a lot of disagreement about that from those who do those sports.

Yup, in fact I'd imagine the basketball players would point out the top level tubby guys in the martial arts and ask you to point out top level tubby basketball players....

 

[Devin]

Higher stakes.

If you just shoot pucks at a net in your driveway for fun, and play with your buddies on weekends then you have little to lose. If you get into a fight and you don't have the skills to defend yourself, it could cost you a lot.

A teacher and a group of people can help you learn better and faster.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Higher stakes.

If you just shoot pucks at a net in your driveway for fun, and play with your buddies on weekends then you have little to lose. If you get into a fight and you don't have the skills to defend yourself, it could cost you a lot.

Maybe. Some people can fight without any formal training.



A teacher and a group of people can help you learn better and faster.

Possibly. I've been in some schools that had students that couldn't tie their shoes wearing blackbelts, and teaching.

 

[Andrew Green]

Higher stakes.

If you just shoot pucks at a net in your driveway for fun, and play with your buddies on weekends then you have little to lose. If you get into a fight and you don't have the skills to defend yourself, it could cost you a lot.

A teacher and a group of people can help you learn better and faster.

There is a lot more to martial arts then defending yourself when attacked. I've never had that happen, probably never will.

That said, a bunch of guys sparring hard will be a lot better off in a fight then a bunch of guys in a formal class doing kata and point sparring.

 

[hongkongfooey]

There is a lot more to martial arts then defending yourself when attacked. I've never had that happen, probably never will.

That said, a bunch of guys sparring hard will be a lot better off in a fight then a bunch of guys in a formal class doing kata and point sparring.

I agree, Andrew. If you have a few guys that have drilled a few basics and put that skill to use in actual contact sparring, for say a year, probably have the advantage over a student who has had a year of commercial training.

 

[Sin]

Ok, training on your own takes a whole lot of willpower and determination. If you don't have that it will be difficult for you to do anything. You also have to be very judgemental of yourself. Work in front of a mirror all the time, to see the failures of your technique, and also the disapline(sp) of control...a instructor keeps those in check...when your starting out...Now after you get your black belt and you have covered the ciriculim(sp) that your school offers and you feel like you need to broaden your horizons, by all means do so, but training on your own is great if you have all of the previous attributes...The reasoning behind a Black belt going off on his/her own, is because if they have had proper training they would have developed those certain skills and attributes that are necessary for solo training....Good Luck with your Grappling Club, it sounds a lot of fun. Just have people sign a waver excempting you from all liablities and the like.

 

[Andrew Green]

I already got a club, have been teaching for a few years now

This is more of a shouldn't we be encouraging people to do this rather then telling them they are wrong and should find a teacher when they show up on boards like this looking for advise

Training on your own I would agree, you cannot learn to fight. You can get into shape, learn how to hit hard, but not a whole lot. Same as trying to learn to play basketball without people to play with, you can get some basic skills but never really learn to play.

And it's not about grappling either, what would be wrong with people setting up and sparring under TKD rules, or sport karate, Judo, BJJ, etc?

 

[The Lorax]

I think many of the people that come here asking about training at home are trying to learn a particular style through books or dvds (i'm new here and just saying what I've seen so far, I could be wrong). Trying to learn an already established system without an instructor from said system would be incredibly hard. They could possibly develop their own system and practice their own techniques based on whatever they've figured out from books and videos, but it wouldnt be the same as the system its based on.

 

[Makalakumu]

Andrew

One of the questions that I think is important in this discussion is whether or not people consider MA a sport. People who practice TMA would be more inclined to say "no" and I think raises the expectations as far as instruction is concerned.

With that being said, I boxed and wrestled with my friends in HS all of the time. Sure, I had some professional instruction in both, but I still learned alot...and my friends were able to learn alot.

 

[Andrew Green]

Yup, thats what it all comes down to, even in a more general sense.

Everyone wants to believe there martial arts beliefs are right. It is / isn't a sport. It must be perserved / grown. Lineage is / isn't important.

Would be nice if when someone came on asking for advice they could get it without the elitist comments... Sometimes they should be told to join a club, sometimes what they are trying to do can only be done in a club, or they are so far off base that they need someone in person to help them. Other times, they should be encouraged in what they are doing and aided if possible.

 

[Makalakumu]

Yup, thats what it all comes down to, even in a more general sense.

Everyone wants to believe there martial arts beliefs are right. It is / isn't a sport. It must be perserved / grown. Lineage is / isn't important.

Would be nice if when someone came on asking for advice they could get it without the elitist comments... Sometimes they should be told to join a club, sometimes what they are trying to do can only be done in a club, or they are so far off base that they need someone in person to help them. Other times, they should be encouraged in what they are doing and aided if possible.

You know, Andrew, you could be that perspective for people. I would totally respect your opinion and your advising someone to stay interested in what they are doing even if they aren't really serious and are just kind of "playing around".

The only place that I would draw the line is where safety is a concern.

However, I think that TMAists have a point too. Certain traditions, linages, and cultural practices are important for MA training. Training in a TMA can really have a lot of meaning and encouraging someone to try that also, is, IMO, important.

 

[IcemanSK]

Yup, thats what it all comes down to, even in a more general sense.

Everyone wants to believe there martial arts beliefs are right. It is / isn't a sport. It must be perserved / grown. Lineage is / isn't important.

Would be nice if when someone came on asking for advice they could get it without the elitist comments... Sometimes they should be told to join a club, sometimes what they are trying to do can only be done in a club, or they are so far off base that they need someone in person to help them. Other times, they should be encouraged in what they are doing and aided if possible.

I'm not sure how "seek out a school" is elitist, for someone seeking advice on the net. If someone were asking advice on pool playing or basketball, I'd direct them to seek out someone who knew how to play.

I think we are talking apples & oranges here. And if I've taken your comments in a way other than you intended, I appologize. It really depends on what you wanna get out of the technique, I suppose.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

Again I think this is the beauty of forums. What one may see as "elitist" advice such as seeking out a qualified instructor, another truly believes that is the best way. Everyone is free to voice their opinion...after all anyone who is asking is asking for opinions so there is nothing wrong with saying what you believe is best.

I guess we could all try to make everyone happy all of the time and say to someone seeking advice that they should do whatever they want, but if I don't believe it, why say it? And if you don't want to hear it, why ask?

 

[Andrew Green]

I'm not sure how "seek out a school" is elitist, for someone seeking advice on the net. If someone were asking advice on pool playing or basketball, I'd direct them to seek out someone who knew how to play.

Paritally it is in how it is said, too often it seems it is not a suggestion to seek out a professional, but a you shouldn't be doing it at all unless you do response.

IMO that does nothing to build interest in the martial arts, we should be trying to support everyone, at every level, and at every commitment level. Whether they are playing with some friends in the basement, practicing kicks from movies in the spare room, or training with world class coaches.

If someone finds a coach, they will be better off in terms of skill progression, but that might not be what they want. They might want only to fool around informally with a buddy, and that is fine. Maybe eventually, they will go to a higher level, but we should support them at there current level, not tell them we refuse to help until they step up to a higher level.

Same as pool, if someone wants to play once a month or so in a pub, that is fine. If they ask for tips they should get them, having everyone tell them to stop doing it or join a league does no one any good.

 

[Gemini]

Don't know what to tell ya Andrew. Maybe I'm one of those elitists you're referring to, but I would never tell anyone they CAN'T do something. I would however, strongly suggest that that's not the route to take, IMO. And frankly, I'm not going to change my opinion just to appease someone, though I do agree that some degree of decorum is often called for and I do my best to adhere to that. My opinion is based on 2 things. #1. Most instructors will tell you it's much much more difficult to untrain someone that's learned incorrectly than to train someone with no experience. Self training is very much a hit or miss (mostly miss) proposition. #2. Is because I was one of those self trained individuals you're referring to (back in high school, my first introduction to MA's) and the memory of the stuff I used to do in the name of self training makes me cringe. I just didn't know any better. Now I do. Why in the world would I condone someone going down that road?....

Humbly, my opinion, sir.