Come in, or go away.

[Paul_D]

Thanks for your explanation. Many years ago when I was a waiter and served coffee to someone, he said, "I don't want no sugar." I put a lot of sugar into his coffee.

You gave him what he asked for, hope,he tipped you then.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They are still a person. You either have the time to help them out or you don't.

Nobody has said they won't help them. The OP was specifically about someone who keeps calling to ask more questions. That's not someone who's going to come to classes. It doesn't matter whether I have time or not - I can't help someone who won't come to classes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

[Ring ring.]

Hello, I'm interested in taking classes, I was wondering if you could answer a few questions.

Sure, come on in and I'll be happy to talk with you. You know where we are and our hours?

Yes, but well, before I come in, I just want to talk with you on the phone.

Didn't you call last week?

Er, yes, but I had a few more questions.

And once before that, about a month ago?

Um, maybe? I've been calling lots of places...

OK, so come in, we'll talk.

But I...

Nope. You are not going to come in. You just call and talk about all the things you will never do. You have great plans, but you're all talk and no action.

That's kind of rude.

I'm not wrong, though, am I?

...

So put the phone down and come in. We will welcome you, show you around, let you watch our training, you can even try a bit if you wish. We don't do contracts, nobody here gets paid, there is no pressure to join. Love to have new students, but we don't need to beg for them. We'll answer all your questions face to face.

That seems a bit, I dunno, harsh?

Son, we teach martial arts. The first secret of martial arts is to show up. So show up.

....well...I just wanted to ask some questions...

Ask me in person. Goodbye.

You should have told him to call you when he gets to your school. lol

 

[drop bear]

Nobody has said they won't help them. The OP was specifically about someone who keeps calling to ask more questions. That's not someone who's going to come to classes. It doesn't matter whether I have time or not - I can't help someone who won't come to classes.

People have no idea even the right questions to ask. But then we complain they approach the conversation the wrong way.

Of course they don't come in. They don't feel you can even help them over the phone.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People have no idea even the right questions to ask. But then we complain they approach the conversation the wrong way.

Of course they don't come in. They don't feel you can even help them over the phone.

You are ignoring the part where the caller had called before, and had questions answered. But then you do that a lot.

 

[drop bear]

You are ignoring the part where the caller had called before, and had questions answered. But then you do that a lot.

No. I didn't. It doesn't change my stance. Read my post. They don't even know what questions to ask. So they ring. As wrong questions. Ring again. Seems pretty sensible unless you know what questions they should have asked.

It was factored in.

You are accusing me of doing stuff I don't do. Which you do a lot.

Your lack of skill communicating with people is a direct factor to how many dumb people you engage with.

If you communicate better. They become smarter.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can't help someone who won't come to classes.

But when people ask you a question in the forum, you may try to answer that question even if that person doesn't pay you. What's the difference here?

 

[JowGaWolf]

When people call to learn more about the school, I listen so I can learn as much as I can about the person I'm talking to. As much as I would like to accept anyone, I know that I can't and I shouldn't. I have to also make sure that the potential student is going to be a good fit for the school. I couldn't accept a student that would make training more dangerous and make things dangerous for the existing students.

 

[Jaeimseu]

If you're having issues getting people to come in, you need to take a hard look at your approach.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No. I didn't. It doesn't change my stance. Read my post. They don't even know what questions to ask. So they ring. As wrong questions. Ring again. Seems pretty sensible unless you know what questions they should have asked.

It was factored in.

You are accusing me of doing stuff I don't do. Which you do a lot.

Your lack of skill communicating with people is a direct factor to how many dumb people you engage with.

If you communicate better. They become smarter.

It's entirely possible - with good communication skills - to tell whether the questions are good questions. And it's even easier to tell when someone is asking the same questions a different way, simply avoiding coming in. We get those folks from time to time here on MT, and patiently answering more questions doesn't help them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But when people ask you a question in the forum, you may try to answer that question even if that person doesn't pay you. What's the difference here?

Here I take the same approach. If someone here is training, I'm doing what I can to help them with what they're training. If someone here isn't training, I'll do my best to help them find training. But once it's clear they aren't going to train, I can't help them with martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

It's entirely possible - with good communication skills - to tell whether the questions are good questions. And it's even easier to tell when someone is asking the same questions a different way, simply avoiding coming in. We get those folks from time to time here on MT, and patiently answering more questions doesn't help them.

I am aware it is possible. That is kind of my point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am aware it is possible. That is kind of my point.

Then I think I've missed your point this time, DB. I do that more with you than most here, I think. And I think you and I are reading some different subtext into the OP. As I re-read your posts, I think you're just hearing it as someone asking questions. I'm hearing it as someone asking specific kinds of questions - questions I've heard before, and which - when repeated or followed with more of their kind - have never lead to someone even stopping by.

 

[Steve]

It's entirely possible - with good communication skills - to tell whether the questions are good questions. And it's even easier to tell when someone is asking the same questions a different way, simply avoiding coming in. We get those folks from time to time here on MT, and patiently answering more questions doesn't help them.

this is speculation disguised as fact. While I will agree you can tell if someone is hedging in the moment, it's impossible to know that someone will never come in. Days, months or maybe even years later, a few minutes of patience on the phone could bear fruit.

And frankly, some here do a lousy job of patiently answering questions. When you're rude or impatient to people, it's impossible to know whether they left because or in spite of the reception they received. All we really know is that they left.

If you run your school like a club or a non profit, by all means, be judgy and burn leads. However, if you are trying to make a profit, you really need to consider the school as customer service and treat people accordingly.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here I take the same approach. If someone here is training, I'm doing what I can to help them with what they're training. If someone here isn't training, I'll do my best to help them find training. But once it's clear they aren't going to train, I can't help them with martial arts.

I take the same approach. My goal is to help the person that is calling. I can do this in 2 ways. I can offer what is taught at my school or I can suggest a school that may be a good fit for them. Either way I want to make a good impression because while that person may not want Jow Ga Kung Fu, they may know someone who want kung fu and they may recommend Jow Ga Kung fu and my school in particular.

I imagine the conversation being something like
Caller's (Frank) Friend: "Hey Frank, do you know of any good kung fu schools?"
Frank: "I spoke to someone at Jow Ga Kung Fu academy, they were nice. Try them out. They may know of a good place if they aren't right for you."

The only reason I imagine the conversation like this, is because I've seen similar conversations play out here when someone asks "Do you know a good martial arts school in my area?"

I had a caller who only talked about his martial art and what they did at his old school, and he asked me about testing and I told him we don't have testing, just evaluation. He asked about ranking and I told him we didn't have belts. The conversation went on for 5 email communications and with each email. I felt more and more like I had to prove something to him. When I start to feel like that then I just got straight to the point and suggested a different school. It was the kind way of saying "We don't want you to be a student here."

 

[JowGaWolf]

it's impossible to know that someone will never come in. Days, months or maybe even years later, a few minutes of patience on the phone could bear fruit.

My Sifu learned this about me. I visited the school one month and he didn't see me until Months later. He told me that he originally thought that I was full of crap after the first couple of weeks passed. lol. But he was never rude at the beginning and had patience. I told him that I had to wait a few months before joining because I had to save up enough money for my son to join as well.

My school's newest student viewed the website and the sparing videos on the website for 6 months before reaching out to ask about classes. He showed up a few weeks later. It took a week of free classes for him to join. He was happy with what he saw in the classes so hopefully he will be with us for a few years or longer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

this is speculation disguised as fact. While I will agree you can tell if someone is hedging in the moment, it's impossible to know that someone will never come in. Days, months or maybe even years later, a few minutes of patience on the phone could bear fruit.

And frankly, some here do a lousy job of patiently answering questions. When you're rude or impatient to people, it's impossible to know whether they left because or in spite of the reception they received. All we really know is that they left.

If you run your school like a club or a non profit, by all means, be judgy and burn leads. However, if you are trying to make a profit, you really need to consider the school as customer service and treat people accordingly.

It's a conclusion drawn on experience. Speculation would usually be thought of as guessing, and this isn't guessing. There are types of questions that when repeated have never in my experience involved someone coming in, no matter how many questions you answer. So I now prefer to give people a nudge to come in to ask the rest of their questions. If they won't, it's either because it's too inconvenient (and will remain so, should they decide to sign up, so they'll quit soon), or because they just can't make up their mind. I'm no help to them in either case. I can only help prospective students over the phone to a certain point. Then they actually need to come in. I don't need it - they do. My experience when I would take more time to answer their questions - handling repeat calls with no urgency - was that they never came in, and often called a couple more times.

I never said anything about being rude, and I'm patient through a series of questions. I just know that eventually they need to come in. Coming in will save them time. They'll either like what we do and sign up, or they won't, and can continue their search. I've always managed to do this without being rude to people.

 

[JP3]

[A dojo is not Burger King. They don't get to have it their way.

But Bill, what if it is a McDojo? Surely they'd Be Lovin' It!

Oh man... that was too easy. It was Right there. I had to do it.

But trying to be at least marginally serious, on the O/P I think there is a slight disconnect with it and some of the responses.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Bill, but I believe you wrote elsewhere that your Sensei's dojo is not primarily a money-making machine. It is something that he does, for his own enjoyment and betterment, and for the education and betterment of others. It's not all about money, though certainly money is an influence and a factor to consider, since the lights need to stay on, and the heater run in the winter, etc.

That's a totally different concept of school than your typical McDojo with a 1,000 kid roster of students, and people getting ranked up every two weeks for the next sparkly dot on the next stripe on their fuschia belt.

I agree with Gerry on this idea... that if it is challenging for the person to come to the dojo to visit it, to see if they even like the way I look, smell, laugh, or heck even teach... they'll probably have a hard time getting to class. I might be able to sway them IF they show up, but showing up IS the first step to success and it IS 90% of continuing success.

Being sensitive and aware in extreme cases, such as the potential rape victim, I've had to do that a couple of times. Nothing at all like what I perceive to be those of other posters on here, and I won't pretend to it. It will be something that happens to you as an instructor, and it is a good idea o have at least "something" in mind for when it happens... those persons can not be handled like other persons if you want success in dealing with them.

At our current location, I had one young woman (I say she was young... she was probably early 30s) call in and ask about class. I asked if she knew where we were and she said yes, she worked in the same business park as we were located and went past the school nearly every day and saw people coming and going. I asked her to stop in the next day as it was a class day... and the conversation got weird. She asked why she would have to come by.... I said so you can look inside? She asked who would be there.... I said, well, me and whoever of the students show up for that day's classes? How many female students do you have....Right now, there are five? Do you have the women practice with the men.... well, yes.... we sort of have to, we've only got one room and one mat for practice?

She said I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. And hung up. She called back a month or so later.... and said she'd been thinking about it as she went past every work day, saw the same people coming in and going out... and asked if it would be OK to come by. I said sure... as one would. She didn't come by that day (A Tuesday as I recall)... but she did show up all unannounced, while class was going, on Thursday. I stepped off of the mat to greet her, and she stood up from where she'd been sitting, and took a step towards the door. Literally. I remember thinking... "Weird" and snapped to the phone calls, witht he whiz-bang awesomeness of a 5th grader.... and connected the calls tot he person. "Hi, are you [NAME]?" Response was just a nod. OK, nice to meet you, do you have questions or do you just wish to watch and ask questions later? "I'll just watch." Okey-dokey... turn around, and go back to being thrown around by people, which is fun for me.

She ended up starting class, I found out that she'd beent he victim of sexual abuse as a child, and further had been raped. It was a huge struggle for her to even speak to a male... but she came to class regularly for about 3 and a half years before she had a employment opportunity that she had to take, huge vertical move for her. In that 3 years she progressed steadily, once she had built up trust and rapport with her training partners.

I wrote all that to say this: You Will be able to ... tell... when you've got a special case on your hands. I don't know Bill personally, but from the tenor of his posts I feel very secure in offering that if [NAME] had called his Sensei's dojo and Bill answered the call, he'd not have been brusque and/or dismissive.

For those who are just out kicking tiers... they won't be ready to buy until they are actually... ready. Time is a precious thing... on both sides of this equation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For those who are just out kicking tiers

I hate it when people beat up on the levels. (Sorry, had to do it.)

I think you and I are on the same page with this. I've not had anyone as significantly affected as the example you give, but I did have someone come to a series of workshops I offered who'd had some severely bad experiences. She toughed it out, even though she needed to stop and cry every time someone touched her neck (her experience involved an actual "rape choke"). She didn't join classes long-term, but made decent progress in the few weeks of the seminar series. It took a different approach to help her get started, and her discomfort was very different from those folks who just danced around topics.

 

[Steve]

It's a conclusion drawn on experience. Speculation would usually be thought of as guessing, and this isn't guessing. There are types of questions that when repeated have never in my experience involved someone coming in, no matter how many questions you answer. So I now prefer to give people a nudge to come in to ask the rest of their questions. If they won't, it's either because it's too inconvenient (and will remain so, should they decide to sign up, so they'll quit soon), or because they just can't make up their mind. I'm no help to them in either case. I can only help prospective students over the phone to a certain point. Then they actually need to come in. I don't need it - they do. My experience when I would take more time to answer their questions - handling repeat calls with no urgency - was that they never came in, and often called a couple more times.

I never said anything about being rude, and I'm patient through a series of questions. I just know that eventually they need to come in. Coming in will save them time. They'll either like what we do and sign up, or they won't, and can continue their search. I've always managed to do this without being rude to people.

Educated guessing then. Rationalize it however you like but I still consider that to be speculation. Unless you're suggesting you have followed these folks to confirm they never train. That sounds dubious.