Chuck Norris and TKD

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,239
Reaction score
631
It doesn't matter if it existed outside of Chois branch or not. It existed in his branch, and he didn't have patterns to grade from white to black belt. Or a sport. or a federation.
Again, you misunderstand. You have a claim of TSD schools in the 1950's having similar technique to TKD. My point being outside of the Oh Do Kwan which was the singular military gym at that time there were few if any TKD schools so your point has no merit. Of course the Oh Do Kwan which contained many CDK alums trained in TSD would have had people who retained some TSD habits.

So, once again I ask if you have any support for your point and if so please specify any TKD schools outside the Oh Do Kwan that even existed during the time frame you specify? So far all you have is some video of Koreans Kicking and punching that someone labelled TKD.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,239
Reaction score
631
In what way would Chuck have sparred differently in these open championships if he had joined a TaeKwonDo labelled school?

He spars exactly the same. It's a Korean system, period.
So, now is your claim that any Korean system is TKD? Is that your basis for claiming that Chuck Norris studied TKD in Korea?
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,239
Reaction score
631
Here's 1967 TaeKwonDo. Looks like the exact same stylized sparring as the clip Earl Weiss claims is not TKD.

Type in to Youtube

1960's Taekwondo 태권도 Demonstration ~ Colorized​

So, have you now changed your claim from the 1950's to 1960's ?
 

InfiniteLoop

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 30, 2021
Messages
523
Reaction score
107
So, now is your claim that any Korean system is TKD? Is that your basis for claiming that Chuck Norris studied TKD in Korea?
Had General Chois unification efforts failed then you, Mr Weiss, would have most likely been doing Tang Soo Do in 2021, as would I, and the KKW TaeKwonDo branch would have been called Tae Soo Do.

Had I in this life path told you that there is an alternate universe in which General Choi won and Tang Soo Do was renamed TaeKwonDo, you would have labelled me a lunatic.

In Hugh Everetts Many Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, which Stephen Hawkings swore to, this alternative branch has happened...
 

InfiniteLoop

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 30, 2021
Messages
523
Reaction score
107
So yes, I am not going to let politics get in the way of the fact that we are part of the family known as Korean Karate.
 

InfiniteLoop

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 30, 2021
Messages
523
Reaction score
107
Again, you misunderstand. You have a claim of TSD schools in the 1950's having similar technique to TKD. My point being outside of the Oh Do Kwan which was the singular military gym at that time there were few if any TKD schools so your point has no merit. Of course the Oh Do Kwan which contained many CDK alums trained in TSD would have had people who retained some TSD habits.

So, once again I ask if you have any support for your point and if so please specify any TKD schools outside the Oh Do Kwan that even existed during the time frame you specify? So far all you have is some video of Koreans Kicking and punching that someone labelled TKD.

My basis for that claim is that the philosophy, techniques and emphasis didn't change with General Chois Oh Do Kwan branch from the already existing Tang Soo Do system. He copy and pasted Gishin Funakoshis one strike, one kill, and changed "kill" to "victory" . He also took the makiwara and put in the first encyclopedia as a training tool.

If you drive up in a Lexus and I said: "Nice Toyota!" Would you take offense?
 

InfiniteLoop

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 30, 2021
Messages
523
Reaction score
107
AND, in the first Korean Tae Kwon-Do Encyclopedia, Choi also referenced/demo'd Shotokan Katas!

So if Chuck Norris isn't TaeKwonDo for practising Shotokan Katas, neither is Chois Oh Do Kwan branch in the 50s.
 
Last edited:

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,239
Reaction score
631
My basis for that claim is that the philosophy, techniques and emphasis didn't change with General Chois Oh Do Kwan branch from the already existing Tang Soo Do system. H
This is a question of perspective and a matter of degree so it's a silly point to argue. It would be like arguing when Shotokan was distinct from the Shorin and Shorei Ryus since Funakoshi adopted a lot of the prior stuff. Similarly one could make the claim concerning Kano and Judo and it's predecessors.
 

InfiniteLoop

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 30, 2021
Messages
523
Reaction score
107
I wouldn't because it would never happen, I am a "Detroit Iron" guy. But I know some who would and have.

If some aquintances of yours in a social gathering says that you do "Karate", would you correct him? He only missed a word for it to be correct.
This is a question of perspective and a matter of degree so it's a silly point to argue. It would be like arguing when Shotokan was distinct from the Shorin and Shorei Ryus since Funakoshi adopted a lot of the prior stuff. Similarly one could make the claim concerning Kano and Judo and it's predecessors.
Point remains, if there is something that would have changed in Chuck Norris's tournament fighting by affiliating with the Oh Do Kwan Branch, I would like to know what that is. If no such thing that can be referenced, then "virtually indistinguishable" is a correct way of putting it.

While we are on the subject of semantics... Why didn't the late Skipper Mullins change school name to TaeKwonDo?

"In 1968, he became the vice president of Steen's Texas Karate Institute.[2] He was a founding member and director of the Southwest Karate Black Belt Association, later renamed the American Karate Black Belt Association.[2]"
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,239
Reaction score
631
AND, in the first Korean Tae Kwon-Do Encyclopedia, Choi also referenced/demo'd Shotokan Katas!
First and foremost calling it "The Encyclopedia' is erroneous. That refers to the 15 Volume set.

Secondly, these patterns were clearly identified as being from the "Shorin" and "Shorei" (page 216) Schools which predated Shotokan, so are either wrong again or simply have a disdain for accurate terminology.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,239
Reaction score
631
While we are on the subject of semantics... Why didn't the late Skipper Mullins change school name to TaeKwonDo?
You are seriously asking me this question. Perhaps one day you will get to ask Skipper Mullins.
 

InfiniteLoop

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 30, 2021
Messages
523
Reaction score
107
You betcha. I would tell him "Karate is for people who can't do TK-D." :)

Ha! Would you tell that to this guy? He might have some resemblance to me..Not sure... . . I hope he doesn't sue me for copyright infringement! :) He was a kicker.
 

Attachments

  • _20210923_190527.JPG
    _20210923_190527.JPG
    613.2 KB · Views: 19

SahBumNimRush

Master of Arts
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
1,790
Reaction score
151
Location
USA
Well, you made the case that patterns define the name of the art.. You seem to be in a minority with that viewpoint
I don't think GM Weiss was making that case at all. You really like to argue every post, huh?

Those early days where the names and lines were blurred. People chose sides, people used names, so what? I fall into a category of retaining Japanese/Okinawan Karate forms, but also use the term Taekwondo. Why? Because that is what my Kwan Jang Nim calls it. He was part of the Moo Duk Kwan that joined the unification process, but many of those folks left Korea before many of the "updates" happened. Why would he learn something erroneously new, just to maintain a namesake? I don't believe it makes my art any less valid to call it Taekwondo. IMHO, Taekwondo is a broad umbrella term, similar to Karate.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
18,334
Reaction score
5,204
Location
Pueblo West, CO
"Am I doing Tang Soo Do or TaeKwonDo if I train without doing patterns?" His reply was that I am doing neither in that case.
It's not that complicated. An art can be defined by it's curriculum. Forms are part of that curriculum. If you're not training using that curriculum, you're not practicing that art. You're just practicing kicking and punching.
 
Top