Chokes in Aikido?
- Thread starter Hanzou
- Start date
Aikido changed over the years from something violent to something peaceful ( on the surface) as the originator of the system aged. In the beginning it was taught in a much more aggressive manner and may have had chokes
No chokes in my limited experience with it--but some people really emphasize the peace aspect and others take a more aggressive approach. I am sure we have multiple threads in the archives on whether or not there are strikes in it--some people feel very strongly either way about that. But in my mental image of aikido there are no chokes and no strikes per se (though there are feints).
OP
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
Just one? That's very interesting.
Well, it's not as if it's within the main focus of Aikido as a martial art. Not every art has to include every useful technique. I love BJJ, but it doesn't include any knife fighting techniques. Muay Thai is a great art, but it doesn't include any leg locks.
OP
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well it's interesting because Aikido like Judo came from Jujutsu. Its parent style Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu reportedly has a lot of chokes. I'm surprised that they were eliminated.
We don't practise the chokes but we recognise where they are an option. For example, even in Iriminage there is the opportunity to turn it into a choke.
As to the striking, striking is an integral part of a number of techniques. In training some strikes may look like feints but we certainly don't practise feints. If the strike fails it often leaves Uke vulnerable to the next technique.
As to the striking, striking is an integral part of a number of techniques. In training some strikes may look like feints but we certainly don't practise feints. If the strike fails it often leaves Uke vulnerable to the next technique.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Which system of Aikido? There are a number of variants, with slight or large differences in their emphasis or applications, with the Yoshinkan being the closest to the early (Daito Ryu inspired) form, and the Takemusu/Iwama Ryu being essentially where Ueshiba Sensei ended up at the end of the development… of course, the "mainline" (Aikikai, as other forms, has continued to develop under Kisshomaru and Moriteru respectively…
As to why, or why not something receives emphasis, well, that's a question for the system itself.. it could be for any reason, really. But the point is that "chokes" might or might not exist in "Aikido"… depending on which form of Aikido you're talking about, and exactly how you're defining "chokes" (to let you know what I mean by that, one of my systems has a section referred to as "Eri Shime no Waza", or "Collar Choke Techinques"… some of which are methods such as "Ude Jime", or "arm choke"… more of a lock than a real "choke", but still listed under that classification).
Why is that interesting? As has been mentioned many, many times previously, not every martial art has to conform to the same set of ideas, aims, contexts, applications, emphasis', methodologies, or, well, anything of the kind. In fact, no two martial arts have the same list as previously mentioned… so expecting that different martial arts will conform to each other is, well, unrealistic at best.
I wouldn't say "a lot of chokes"… it's still a relatively minor area within Daito Ryu… although it does certainly have a larger emphasis than in many forms of Aikido. And, as far as "because (it) came from Jujutsu", that really doesn't mean anything at all. Judo and Aikido came from completely different Jujutsu systems, each have very different emphasis and technical methodologies… Judo from (dominantly) Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu and Kito Ryu, and Aikido from Daito Ryu Aikijutsu.
But, importantly, they weren't "eliminated", anymore than Yagyu Shinkage's Empi no Kata was eliminated from Aikido's approach to sword. The new art simply had a different emphasis and concept of application.
I would be cautious anytime someone says "in ___, we don't do ____." Often that person is speaking from a single or limited point of experience. It's like saying "in karate, we don't do jumping kicks," "in aikido we don't do hip throws," or "in judo we don't do newaza.". All these statements have been true for places I've visited, but they certainly don't represent the majority experience in those arts.
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
Perhaps interesting wasn't the correct wording. I should have said "surprising".
Its not so much that every martial art needs to conform to the same set of ideas, its more that I'm surprised that a "grappling" art like Aikido doesn't have a high amount of chokes given its nature. It would be quite easy in fact to apply a variety of standing chokes.
Isn't "removed" the same thing as "eliminated"?
Not really lol, you can be removed from your job, from premises, countries even but certainly doesn't mean you've been eliminated!
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay.
Yeah, again, that's expecting things to conform to what you already think, rather than looking at what it actually is. For example, in the very grappling heavy systems I do, some have almost no throws, and no chokes, being centred almost entirely around joint locks (dominantly wrist, then elbow)… others have a large cross-section… some are almost nothing but throwing methods… some have throws and locks, but not chokes… some have dedicated choke methods, but miss on other areas…
So yeah, it can be easy to apply a variety of standing chokes, but that doesn't mean that they are even to be expected. It's easy to kick in a striking system, but that doesn't mean that boxing has to have them.
Yeah, but that's kinda the point… chokes were a fairly minor aspect of Daito Ryu, not a major area of study, and they were never a major emphasis of any form of Aikido either. They weren't "eliminated", nor "removed"… they simply weren't there (in any major way) in the first place.
OP
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
So there are some Aikido styles that practice chokes?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Well… you have a video of an Aikido shimewaza method above… and, as mentioned, the Yoshinkan, being closer to the Daito Ryu (and therefore a bit more "combative") methodology, retained some choking approaches...
TenShin Sensei
White Belt
There are several chokes in Aikido!!
Spinedoc
Brown Belt
We don't focus on chokes in Aikikai style, but that hardly means we never discuss the potential for them. Shomenuchi Iriminage for example has a significant choke potential (any iriminage for that matter) but you have to remember the focus of Aikido. A sword based unarmed art that assumes almost always multiple attackers. To take a contrarian viewpoint, I would say, that while you can place the person into a chokehold during iriminage, that is probably a bad idea, as while you are waiting to "choke them out", you will likely be attacked by someone else from behind. Even during morotedori kokyu nage, we are always taught to throw the person, while looking in the other direction for the next attacker. Different focus, different purpose for the martial art.
On the subject of atemi, O'Sensei once said that atemi was 70% of his aikido. This has been diluted over time and has been discussed ad nauseum in many aikido forums, with luminaries like Stanley Pranin decrying the decline in atemi. This however, varies by dojo. My dojo, while Aikikai and a member of the USAF under Yamada Sensei, is also heavily influenced by Saito Sensei, so has a distinctly Iwama flavor.
I can tell you that both of our teachers use atemi, and one in particular, will smack you rather hard in the ribs, kidneys, or face if your maai, or technique is not correct. While we don't do that with beginners (we want them to come back) as you advance, the atemi (and resistance) becomes much more "active". Not all dojos are like that, but ours is definitely like that.
Respectfully,
Mike
On the subject of atemi, O'Sensei once said that atemi was 70% of his aikido. This has been diluted over time and has been discussed ad nauseum in many aikido forums, with luminaries like Stanley Pranin decrying the decline in atemi. This however, varies by dojo. My dojo, while Aikikai and a member of the USAF under Yamada Sensei, is also heavily influenced by Saito Sensei, so has a distinctly Iwama flavor.
I can tell you that both of our teachers use atemi, and one in particular, will smack you rather hard in the ribs, kidneys, or face if your maai, or technique is not correct. While we don't do that with beginners (we want them to come back) as you advance, the atemi (and resistance) becomes much more "active". Not all dojos are like that, but ours is definitely like that.
Respectfully,
Mike
There are shimewaza opportunities galore in aikido, the most obvious being hadaka-jime anytime one is in/near/entering ushiro. If one has arms like a gibbon like myself, katahajime is more useful, but it is there, all over the place. I think it's more often discussed and taught in Tomiki brand/style than other aikido brands/schools because of the judo influence, perhaps.
Shoot, I don't care if it's Muay Thai... think of it this way: L-jab, R-cross, R-leg kick, partner turns his/her body to his right to escape brunt of leg kick, step-fall into R-foot behind opponent and snake L-hand in across chest, you are 70% of the way into the choke position right there.... uke does have a say in this, I get it, but still. Opportunities for chokes abound, regardless of art, if you are in range.hy7j
Shoot, I don't care if it's Muay Thai... think of it this way: L-jab, R-cross, R-leg kick, partner turns his/her body to his right to escape brunt of leg kick, step-fall into R-foot behind opponent and snake L-hand in across chest, you are 70% of the way into the choke position right there.... uke does have a say in this, I get it, but still. Opportunities for chokes abound, regardless of art, if you are in range.hy7j
