" Chinese Wrestling "

[Hanzou]

Having sparred in this stance before, I have seen it as you describe. It's a much longer distance to cover, even my MMA sparring partner was amazed at how the low stance made "the usual" more difficult to pull off. I know he's been thinking about finding a weakness., eventually he will find out what I already know. "Kick the lead lead to disrupt the balance." Once my body fights to regain balance, it will forget about all other defenses.

Yes there are some that are good at it, but even so it is still a much greater distance to close than you realize. That's why my MMA sparring partner was surprised, he wasn't expecting the distance to be as big. I still haven't done full sparring with it meaning I haven't attacked while in the stance. I just did defense, while my sparring partner could use what ever he wanted. Who knows may the story will be different time we go at it. I'll probably just defend again because right now I just care about my legs lasting. I will be satisfied when I can stay in that low stance and move around in it for 5 minutes. without my legs tiring. I have big mountain to climb but I think it's possible. I also know that my sparring partner will be brainstorming on how to break down that stance. i like that he tries to figure things out instead of brute forcing it. That means he can change on the fly and it also means that my earlier success will be more difficult to repeat. Which is part of the reason why I don't want to get into my offensive tactics when in a low stance.

Why wouldn't your MMA partner simply circle to your open side and shoot from an angle? Why would he try to directly shoot while facing your lead leg? That doesn't make sense.

No offense, but this stuff simply reminds me of the Master Wong stuff; Doggedly adhering to traditional methods instead of simply embracing modern methods for modern techniques. It's like when people say they can beat the Guard by hitting people in the nuts, or bite their way out of a Triangle Choke. There's a reason we don't see super wide stances in MMA, and it's because it isn't as fool proof as you're proclaiming it is. The only time I've seen super wide stances employed is when BJJ guys are trying to troll competitors who are clearly advanced Judoka.

It's the exercise at 0:36 Drawing leg and Basin leg at 0:50 are the ones I practice.

This is the Explanation of Drawing leg. I do the crappy version of this. I have no flexibility at all for this so I'm just taking my time with it. No rush.

Was there a point in that video where he used it against a single leg takedown? I saw that he used it against foot sweeps, but I wasn't talking about foot sweeps. With that said, I'd like to see that being used against Judo foot sweeps, and seeing the results.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why wouldn't your MMA partner simply circle to your open side and shoot from an angle? Why would he try to directly shoot while facing your lead leg? That doesn't make sense.

Because I could still move out of range . Instead of shuffling backwards I can shuffle left or right. I'm in the gym now so I'll use part of my break to record the foot work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are so many games that you can play when your opponent gets you in single leg. First you extend your leg between your opponent's legs. This will connect your body with your opponent's body.

If your opponent moves his

- right leg (his weight is on left leg), you attack his left leg.
- left leg (his weight is on right leg), you attack his right leg.

 

[Alan0354]

Why wouldn't your MMA partner simply circle to your open side and shoot from an angle? Why would he try to directly shoot while facing your lead leg? That doesn't make sense.

No offense, but this stuff simply reminds me of the Master Wong stuff; Doggedly adhering to traditional methods instead of simply embracing modern methods for modern techniques. It's like when people say they can beat the Guard by hitting people in the nuts, or bite their way out of a Triangle Choke. There's a reason we don't see super wide stances in MMA, and it's because it isn't as fool proof as you're proclaiming it is. The only time I've seen super wide stances employed is when BJJ guys are trying to troll competitors who are clearly advanced Judoka.


Was there a point in that video where he used it against a single leg takedown? I saw that he used it against foot sweeps, but I wasn't talking about foot sweeps. With that said, I'd like to see that being used against Judo foot sweeps, and seeing the results.

I am glad you said what I've been saying over and over BUT BETTER than me in the technical way I cannot get into, even though it's so obvious that a child can see. 30 years after Gracie.................

 

[JowGaWolf]

No offense, but this stuff simply reminds me of the Master Wong stuff; Doggedly adhering to traditional methods instead of simply embracing modern methods for modern techniques.

I spar to learn so why what benefit does it serve me to lie about what works or not? Do you lie about what you discover when you are learning and exploring things things that may or may not work? I'm far from Master Wong. I have no title. I only talk about the things I actually train and experience.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Was there a point in that video where he used it against a single leg takedown? I saw that he used it against foot sweeps, but I wasn't talking about foot sweeps. With that said, I'd like to see that being used against Judo foot sweeps, and seeing the results.

The reason I understand it more now because I explored it with my MMA sparring partner. I tried it against one of his ankle picks. In his technique the lock prevents the foot from moving backwards but not upwards. The turning of the foot prevents my toes from getting stuck. The technique also doesn't work in a tall stance as there is no leverage to pull the leg out.

I can just use cat stance to avoid certain sweeps and trips. I did some wrestling against some new people tonight. He tried to step behind me and trip me. I switched to cat stance and his leg flowed under my leg without resistance. I taught them how to do it tonight and they were able to use it and be successful with it. No need to use the Draw leg to defend against it

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am glad you said what I've been saying over and over BUT BETTER than me in the technical way I cannot get into, even though it's so obvious that a child can see. 30 years after Gracie.................

It's only because you think that the footwork doesn't work. You don't understand the Footwork. Even if I show you that it works you will make another excuse and say that my sparring partner is not of good quality.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why wouldn't your MMA partner simply circle to your open side and shoot from an angle? Why would he try to directly shoot while facing your lead leg? That doesn't make sense.

No offense, but this stuff simply reminds me of the Master Wong stuff; Doggedly adhering to traditional methods instead of simply embracing modern methods for modern techniques. It's like when people say they can beat the Guard by hitting people in the nuts, or bite their way out of a Triangle Choke. There's a reason we don't see super wide stances in MMA, and it's because it isn't as fool proof as you're proclaiming it is. The only time I've seen super wide stances employed is when BJJ guys are trying to troll competitors who are clearly advanced Judoka.


Was there a point in that video where he used it against a single leg takedown? I saw that he used it against foot sweeps, but I wasn't talking about foot sweeps. With that said, I'd like to see that being used against Judo foot sweeps, and seeing the results.

Oh about the sweeps. I've already showed a video that in the past. The person was successful the fist time. After fist time I was able to neutralize his follow up attempts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's like when people say they can beat the Guard by hitting people in the nuts, or bite their way out of a Triangle Choke.

I've never said such thing about any chokes.

There's a reason we don't see super wide stances in MMA, and it's because it isn't as fool proof as you're proclaiming it is. The only time I've seen super wide stances employed is when BJJ guys are trying to troll competitors who are clearly advanced Judoka.

I've never said that I use a super wide stance. Show me where I've said that. You guys make a lot of assumptions about what I'm talking about. A low stance does not mean that it has to be a super wide stance. A low stance simply means you bend your knees more. It doesn't mean make your stance as wide as possible.

Do you consider this a super wide stance?

If I'm doing a super wide stance then so are these professional MMA fighters.

This is a super wide stance. You go go back to any of my post and you'll see me talk about low stances, not super wide stances.

Was there a point in that video where he used it against a single leg takedown? I saw that he used it against foot sweeps, but I wasn't talking about foot sweeps.

You asked me what technique I was using. I told you. These are your words "Would you happen to have an example of that SJ technique? I'm very curious to see what you're talking about here."
I gave you an example of the technique I was using. That is what the MMA guy was trying to do to me. I've already shown you the technique that used.

This technique doesn't work on me because of my stance is low and the foot of my lead leg doesn't point north. You can see in the picture that my lead foot in not pointing north . I there's no way that he can push the inside of my knee.

and it's because it isn't as fool proof as you're proclaiming it is.

I never said it was fool proof. I already told you where the technique is weak and why.

 

[Alan0354]

It's only because you think that the footwork doesn't work. You don't understand the Footwork. Even if I show you that it works you will make another excuse and say that my sparring partner is not of good quality.

No, I understand, just there are a MUCH BETTER way called sprawling that is proven all these years. You just refused to look at it like you said in the past that you want to find something in your style that can do that.

I am still waiting for your video. Are you waiting until you can beat him before you record it? It's been a long time already.

 

[Steve]

The reason I understand it more now because I explored it with my MMA sparring partner.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that you are doing something a little different. But man, the way you draw sweeping conclusions from your limited interactions with a single "MMA sparring partner" just seems janky. To be more specific, I think you might be jumping to a conclusion with insufficient evidence or experience.

It's like if I said, "Gay men do X. I know a lot about this because I have a gay friend."

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, I understand, just there are a MUCH BETTER way called sprawling that is proven all these years. You just refused to look at it like you said in the past that you want to find something in your style that can do that.

Once again you make assumptions about things in me. Sprawling has nothing to do with "finding something in my style." Sprawling is already in Jow Ga Kung Fu. The thing about sprawling is that I can't kick or punch from that position. So if I want to have those options available to me then I'll need to learn more than just sprawling.

Same guy another sprawl

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The reason I understand it more now because I explored it with my MMA sparring partner.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that you are doing something a little different. But man, the way you draw sweeping conclusions from your limited interactions with a single "MMA sparring partner" just seems janky. To be more specific, I think you might be jumping to a conclusion with insufficient evidence or experience.

It's like if I said, "Gay men do X. I know a lot about this because I have a gay friend."

I agree with Steve here. What you are doing is a great first step for pressure testing and refining your techniques. But it's just a first step. There are a huge range of MMA practitioners with different styles, skill levels, strengths, and weaknesses. They will test you and expose flaws in your movement differently.

I've sparred Kung Fu practitioners and done well. That doesn't necessarily mean that I will do equally well in sparring you.

At some point in your process, it will be helpful to find an environment where you get to spar a wider variety of partners. You'll find that a certain tactic which works reliably against one opponent ends up failing miserably against another. Some MMA gyms are quite good for this and are open to friendly exchanges and testing with practitioners of different background. (Other gyms you should probably avoid.)

 

[JowGaWolf]

But man, the way you draw sweeping conclusions from your limited interactions with a single "MMA sparring partner" just seems janky. To be more specific, I think you might be jumping to a conclusion with insufficient evidence or experience.

I have had similar experiences with other people I spar with. Not only with my MMA sparring partner. I only talk about my MMA sparring partner because that's who I'm sparring with now. I've sparred against other grapplers and strikers. This is why I say that I wish I could spar with some of you guys so you can see for yourself. It probably seems "Janky" because you probably have an inaccuate image of what I'm doing. You probably think I'm looking like this when I'm sparring, If so then you definitely have the wrong image of what's going on and what I'm doing.

I hear what you are saying but all of this doubt is actually coming from people who don't spar in the same low stance that I spar in. I don't even know if you guys have even sparred against someone who gets in a low stance like me (Again. my stance doesn't look like that guy in the picutre.) If you haven't sparred against someone who gets into a low stance like me, then how do you know what I'm describing?

 

[Steve]

I have had similar experiences with other people I spar with. Not only with my MMA sparring partner. I only talk about my MMA sparring partner because that's who I'm sparring with now. I've sparred against other grapplers and strikers. This is why I say that I wish I could spar with some of you guys so you can see for yourself. It probably seems "Janky" because you probably have an inaccuate image of what I'm doing. You probably think I'm looking like this when I'm sparring, If so then you definitely have the wrong image of what's going on and what I'm doing.
View attachment 29101

I hear what you are saying but all of this doubt is actually coming from people who don't spar in the same low stance that I spar in. I don't even know if you guys have even sparred against someone who gets in a low stance like me (Again. my stance doesn't look like that guy in the picutre.) If you haven't sparred against someone who gets into a low stance like me, then how do you know what I'm describing?

Just to be clear, my comment has nothing really to do with the specific techniques. Until you have some broader experience, I would recommend just being mindful of the possibility that you don't know what you don't know and are at the 'unconscious incompetence' stage of development.

Look at it this way. I would be highly suspicious of similar conclusions being drawn by your MMA sparring partner about kung fu. I'm pretty sure he's not going back to his MMA pals saying similar things to them. "Hey guys. I have a kung fu sparring partner, and everything I ever thought about kung fu is 100% true!"

 

[Hanzou]

Because I could still move out of range . Instead of shuffling backwards I can shuffle left or right. I'm in the gym now so I'll use part of my break to record the foot work.

You can shuffle right or left how exactly? Your stance still has a wide open area regardless of which way you shuffle, and there's no way you can turn quickly enough with that wide of a stance versus someone who is utilizing boxing or wrestling footwork.
You sacrifice mobility for stability, unless we're simply ignoring the laws of physics.

The reason I understand it more now because I explored it with my MMA sparring partner. I tried it against one of his ankle picks. In his technique the lock prevents the foot from moving backwards but not upwards. The turning of the foot prevents my toes from getting stuck. The technique also doesn't work in a tall stance as there is no leverage to pull the leg out.

I can just use cat stance to avoid certain sweeps and trips. I did some wrestling against some new people tonight. He tried to step behind me and trip me. I switched to cat stance and his leg flowed under my leg without resistance. I taught them how to do it tonight and they were able to use it and be successful with it. No need to use the Draw leg to defend against it

When I say SIngle Leg Takedown, I'm talking about this;

And please observe all the different variations.

I've never said such thing about any chokes.

It's the exact same type of thinking.

I've never said that I use a super wide stance. Show me where I've said that. You guys make a lot of assumptions about what I'm talking about. A low stance does not mean that it has to be a super wide stance. A low stance simply means you bend your knees more. It doesn't mean make your stance as wide as possible.

Do you consider this a super wide stance?
View attachment 29089

If I'm doing a super wide stance then so are these professional MMA fighters.

View attachment 29090

This is a super wide stance. You go go back to any of my post and you'll see me talk about low stances, not super wide stances.

Those MMA fighters are in motion. The standard MMA stance at rest is not as wide as that or as wide as your stance. Again, it isn't that wide because it sacrifices mobility and is vulnerable to flanking and takedowns. I said "super-wide" because that's how you were describing it, but yes due to those pictures I would not consider your stance "super-wide", however it is very wide for a fighting stance.

You asked me what technique I was using. I told you. These are your words "Would you happen to have an example of that SJ technique? I'm very curious to see what you're talking about here."
I gave you an example of the technique I was using. That is what the MMA guy was trying to do to me. I've already shown you the technique that used.

This technique doesn't work on me because of my stance is low and the foot of my lead leg doesn't point north. You can see in the picture that my lead foot in not pointing north . I there's no way that he can push the inside of my knee.

Clearly we weren't talking about the same technique. Further, saying a technique "doesn't work on you" is entering Master Wong territory. I respect you and your experience, but saying stuff like that is a big red flag. Again, I think the issue is that you want to find the answers to problems using only Jow Ga. While that is admirable, the simple reality is that all the answers are not in Jow Ga or any singular fighting style.

It reminds me of when the Gracies refused to incorporate leglocks in their system because they said that their system was perfect. Instead of simply learning leglocks and bringing them into GJj, they came up with ridiculous excuses and methodologies on how to beat leglocks, and it was all BS, culmuniating in Royler and Rener Gracie getting demolished by leglockers in competition.

Eventually it became quite clear that they had to learn leglocks or they would rapidly lose students because other groups had started embracing leglocks with rapid speed. Now GJJ gyms incorporate leglocks, and the art and its students are better for it.

Learning to sprawl or the Guard isn't going to break your Jow Ga, it'll make it better.

 

[JowGaWolf]

here are a huge range of MMA practitioners with different styles, skill levels, strengths, and weaknesses. They will test you and expose flaws in your movement differently.

I can't spar against all MMA guys. That's not realistic . I can only tell you who I sparred against the the reactions that they have and the feedback that they tell me.. Some of this stuff I could literally take a tape measure and show some of the the stuff that I've explained.

I've sparred Kung Fu practitioners and done well. That doesn't necessarily mean that I will do equally well in sparring you.

It's not about doing well or not doing well. It's about what exists and what doesn't exists. For example. If I stand in front of you and your fist can touch my face, without moving my feet I can lower my stance and the distance between your fist and my face will increase. But the distance from my feet to your body will be the same.. If we use the same example, but this time I only leave my lead foot in place and step back with my rear foot, then the distance between your fist and my face increases. If I lower that stance the distance increases.

• If I stand tall, then I give you more room to shoot underneath my guard. If I lower my stance then I give you less room to shoot underneath my guard.
• The higher my stance the further away my guard is from my knee and shin. The lower my stance the closer my guard is to my leg.
• If I stand in a low stance for a long time, that low stance will demand more energy of my legs to maintain the stance.sales.

All of these are true and are independent of anyone's skill level. The challenges that exists because of this will be the same challenges that everyone has to overcome. How well a person does in addressing these will determine how much advantage or disadvantage they will have.
This is where I start my training. Are there some exceptions to this? Of course, but those exceptions should be covered as exceptions and not included in general function If you are 6 feet tall and your opponent is the same height, then the above will be true. If you are 6ft and your opponent is 5"7 then it's an exception. I always think of martial art techniques as being applied to someone who is near the same height as their opponent.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I can't spar against all MMA guys. That's not realistic . I can only tell you who I sparred against the the reactions that they have and the feedback that they tell me..

Of course. But the more sparring partners you have with different styles and body types, the more confident you can be about your conclusions. I've definitely had multiple occasions where I thought I had a good understanding of what worked in a given situation and then run into a sparring partner who forced me to re-evaluate things.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Look at it this way. I would be highly suspicious of similar conclusions being drawn by your MMA sparring partner about kung fu. I'm pretty sure he's not going back to his MMA pals saying similar things to them. "Hey guys. I have a kung fu sparring partner, and everything I ever thought about kung fu is 100% true!"

I'm sure he does. But it's not from the point of view of Kung Fu. It's from the point of MMA. I'm also sure he doesn't put it on a scale of 100%. As much as I gas out in the ground game. I'm pretty sure he is validated that most Kung Fu students don't grapple to the extent that they do. I'm also pretty sure no one here will say differently. Or at least have not said differently in past discussion. The reason I know is because he has already express those views to me directly about the things that he has seen from other in the gym. Those conversations always start with "I don't want to be that guy." Then he shares his thoughts. We are pretty open about thoughts and assumptions that we have about what we do.

He is more of a "Always test the technique." I'm more of a "It's not the technique but the user" We clash a little on that aspect, but are straight forward with the training approach. that we take. He already knows that I'm exploring the low stance. We just don't talk in the same manner that you guys do. When I first told him what I was going to do with the low stance, he was more than willing to put that to the test. Which is what I want him to do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Of course. But the more sparring partners you have with different styles and body types, the more confident you can be about your conclusions. I've definitely had multiple occasions where I thought I had a good understanding of what worked in a given situation and then run into a sparring partner who forced me to re-evaluate things.

The challenges will still exist. Regardless of how many people I spar with.. The only thing that is going to be different is their approach of tearing down the defense and my approach to implementing it. Things like how long to hold the stance, how to keep my legs from burning out. When to get into the lowstance and when to rise out of it. All of that doesn't change the challenges, it just changes the application of the stance. For example, Do I just stand there in a low stance or move in a low stance. Either choice is still a low stance application. But those challenges are still there.

The phase that I'm at now is the leg strengthening phase I need to be able to stand and move in a low stance for at least 5 minutes without my legs completely failing. I won't be effective for too long if I can't get to that point with my leg strength, Right now my only option is to come out of the stance and get into it as needed which is fine, but it's going to be a problem if I get into a clinch while in that low stance.