" Chinese Wrestling "

[Jimmythebull]

crazy swinging punches which reminds me of a guy i knew as a kid. when he had a fight he always swung his punches. Bit of topic i know but i was wondering why chinese wrestling is not more popular (as wrote in my last post). It does look good. I would definetly try it.

not saying with the video all these KO´s are Choy Lay Fut...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So far, the only effective defense of shoot is spraw. It's ugly like a duck, but that really neutralize a lot of the shoot.

The sprawl is one of the most important and effective counters for a wrestling shot, but it is far from the only one. Other options include:

• Distance management - making it hard for the opponent to ever get the opportunity to start a good shot
• Changing level, coupled with frames and/or underhooks
• Hand fighting to shut down opportunities for the shot
• Evading the shot by cutting an angle, frequently combined with frames and/or level changes
• Snapping down the opponent's head (can be combined with a sprawl)
• Catching a kimura grip, which can be used for a reversal, submission, or forcing the opponent into defensive mode
• Guillotine choke
• Catching the opponent with a knee or uppercut on the way in. This is risky, but can be devastating when it works.

Of course, there are offensive counters for all these defenses, including the sprawl. And there are defensive counters to the counters. It's a deep, deep area of study.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don't like the San Shou 3 seconds clinching time limitation. If you can't take your opponent down within 3 seconds, the referee will separate both fighters. This is why the ACSCA comes up the combat SC rule which is the same as the San Shou rule but without that 3 seconds limitation.

It's not always 3 seconds. In Lei Tai formats it's often up to the ref, competitors will grapple a lot longer as long as something is going on and they're not just hugging each other. If somebody turns their back to attempt a throw and it fails, and the other guy just bear hugs, that's a good case for splitting them up and you'll see that sometimes. It's not pro wrestling lol.

And there's no time limit in sparring, I've seen some pretty serious Sanda clinchfighting. If it were to go to the ground all the time, it might actually get a bit boring. I started to feel the same way about UFC until they started getting back into the solid strike game, after that brief love affair with GJJ.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The sprawl is one of the most important and effective counters for a wrestling shot, but it is far from the only one. Other options include:

• Distance management - making it hard for the opponent to ever get the opportunity to start a good shot
• Changing level, coupled with frames and/or underhooks
• Hand fighting to shut down opportunities for the shot
• Evading the shot by cutting an angle, frequently combined with frames and/or level changes
• Snapping down the opponent's head (can be combined with a sprawl)
• Catching a kimura grip, which can be used for a reversal, submission, or forcing the opponent into defensive mode
• Guillotine choke
• Catching the opponent with a knee or uppercut on the way in. This is risky, but can be devastating when it works.

Of course, there are offensive counters for all these defenses, including the sprawl. And there are defensive counters to the counters. It's a deep, deep area of study.

I was trying to remember what I forgot to list ...

• Hip check

... is another important one.

If your opponent is wearing a jacket, then countering with an uchimata can also be done sometimes, but you're less likely to see that in MMA.

 

[geezer]

crazy swinging punches which reminds me of a guy i knew as a kid. when he had a fight he always swung his punches. Bit of topic i know but i was wondering why chinese wrestling is not more popular (as wrote in my last post). It does look good. I would definetly try it.

not saying with the video all these KO´s are Choy Lay Fut...

Off topic or not, I liked the video you posted linking of CLF with other types of fighters using similar whipping power to devastating effect. This is the counterpoint to Wing Chun's straight lines. CLF also has straight lines ....and WC has some circles ...sorta like the white dot in the black, and black dot in the white of the Yin-Yang symbol I guess.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Off topic or not, I liked the video you posted linking of CLF with other types of fighters using similar whipping power to devastating effect. This is the counterpoint to Wing Chun's straight lines. CLF also has straight lines ....and WC has some circles ...sorta like the white dot in the black, and black dot in the white of the Yin-Yang symbol I guess.

Yeah I tried CLF years ago..just didn't like the teacher much. Being honest I like WT better. Just suits me better.

 

[Alan0354]

Well that's the thing, you wouldn't go for a DLT if someone has a wide stance like that. That wide stance opens you up for leg attacks outside of DLTs. In fact the page where you got one of those images from discusses takedowns that you can use against such stances.



No, I get what you're saying, but utilizing a wide, deep stance for an extended period of time to avoid a DLT is an inefficient way to prevent takedowns. Doing that sets you up for vulnerabilities elsewhere, and when you exit that stance to deal with those other weaknesses, the DLT chance opens up again. The sprawl is an infinitely better counter, because your opponent has committed to the takedown and is wide open to a variety of attacks.

BTW, I do agree w/you that (reputable) MMA would be a good place to learn striking combinations into grappling.

Wide stance is not mobile. MMA adapted a middle of the road stance with feet a little over 2ft apart that get the best of both worlds, still narrow enough to jump around like boxing high stance, low enough to have better resistance to being pushed.

Funny why people so resistance to spraw?!!! It just look so ugly and no grace.

 

[Alan0354]

crazy swinging punches which reminds me of a guy i knew as a kid. when he had a fight he always swung his punches. Bit of topic i know but i was wondering why chinese wrestling is not more popular (as wrote in my last post). It does look good. I would definetly try it.

not saying with the video all these KO´s are Choy Lay Fut...

That looks a lot like circle punch that we talked about before(I think before you join). The idea is similar to TKD RIDGE HAND that I learn before. The difference is TKD use the wrist joint and the part between the index finger and wrist to hit. I practice circle punch for a while and decided to go back to ridge hand to do this wide swing.

BTW, I looked into this kind of circle punch in slow motion, some people use the second joint of the fingers to hit. I did not know that until JowGaWolf pointed it out and I verified watching in slow motion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

why do you think this type of wrestling is not so wide spread in the west?, at least not so in Europe? I see other chinese styles like Wing Tsun or Choy Lay Fut but not this type of wrestling

Because there are not that many SC instructors available. SC is trained in China only by the minority muslim people. I believe there are less than 10 (or 5) SC instructors in US. I cannot even name a single SC instructor in Europe today.

Also most people don't like to be thrown over head.

 

[Jimmythebull]

is trained in China only by the minority muslim people

Why? Just curious

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why? Just curious

I believe most muslim SC teachers didn't care about to make SC popular. Also back then (before 100 years), most Chinese muslim teachers didn't like to teach non-muslim students. They would call SC as "minority people self-defense skill".

 

[Jimmythebull]

I believe most muslim SC teachers didn't care about to make SC popular. Also back then (before 100 years), most Chinese muslim teachers didn't like to teach non-muslim students. They would call SC as "minority people self-defense skill".

Interesting but I think eventually it'll get out to the West.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Manageable in what way? Getting hit with a single leg while in a wide stance is just as bad as getting hit with a double leg in a narrow stance. Maybe even worse because the single leg can set up leg locks.

Not for me. I'm comfortable with the single leg defense. Because of the stance that I take. I can easily punch, knee, kick, or grab anything that is trying to control that front leg. I can retreat as far as my rear leg and that's a good distance when I'm in a mid level stance.. I can also detect motion much better at that height. It's not risk free but by reducing the number of targets you can readily attack, I pretty munch know what I have to guard against. Based on someone my same height. I can kick my opponent's body because it's much closer to my lead leg than my body is to his his lead leg. Like my sparring partner learned. It's a lot of distance to make up. He has good kicks and he was surprised that it wasn't so easy.

I thought taking a lower stance in socks would be problematic but I was able to move fast enough. Not that it matters, I was only able to go in one direction in socks. Wearing shoes would allow me to to change directions more quickly. But I'm learning to adjust to not being able to change directions quickly. It forces me to engage in grappling more than I would if I was wearing shoes. Good times for me. good challenges to overcome

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Interesting but I think eventually it'll get out to the West.

In the past 40 years, SC in US has been evolved into combat SC (punch + kick + lock + throw).

Here are some "Combat SC" demo clips by my students (and my student's students).

 

[Hanzou]

Not for me. I'm comfortable with the single leg defense. Because of the stance that I take. I can easily punch, knee, kick, or grab anything that is trying to control that front leg. I can retreat as far as my rear leg and that's a good distance when I'm in a mid level stance.. I can also detect motion much better at that height. It's not risk free but by reducing the number of targets you can readily attack, I pretty munch know what I have to guard against. Based on someone my same height. I can kick my opponent's body because it's much closer to my lead leg than my body is to his his lead leg. Like my sparring partner learned. It's a lot of distance to make up. He has good kicks and he was surprised that it wasn't so easy.

I thought taking a lower stance in socks would be problematic but I was able to move fast enough. Not that it matters, I was only able to go in one direction in socks. Wearing shoes would allow me to to change directions more quickly. But I'm learning to adjust to not being able to change directions quickly. It forces me to engage in grappling more than I would if I was wearing shoes. Good times for me. good challenges to overcome

You can “easily” knee, kick, or grab someone that has control over your front leg to the point that they’ll release your leg?

 

[JowGaWolf]

crazy swinging punches which reminds me of a guy i knew as a kid. when he had a fight he always swung his punches. Bit of topic i know but i was wondering why chinese wrestling is not more popular (as wrote in my last post). It does look good. I would definetly try it.

not saying with the video all these KO´s are Choy Lay Fut...

Good news is that other systems have those punches as well. They should be controlled punches but you have some MMA guys who are picking up techniques and may understand how to do the technique correctly which often results in the punch throwing them off balance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can “easily” knee, kick, or grab someone that has control over your front leg to the point that they’ll release your leg?

If you are talking about "knee stomp" then nope. I'm actually in the best position to defend against that. I used to have people stomp me in knee to prove it. I told the MMA guy to do it and I think he hurt is foot. Round house kicks to the knee, I see coming a mile a way. because people show more movement for some reason when their eyes are focused downward. The only risk that I've encountered so far is being caught shifting weight to my lead leg. If been timed a few times like that but not many. I don't consider this a weakness of a stance because it still exists in higher stances.

There is a Shuai Jiao escapes that works on someone grabbing that front legs. It fits right with the stance. I had the MMA guy try one of the the techniques he was planning to get me with, so I tested it with the high stance and the mid level stance. . I let him put it and felt the effect of it. It was effective against a high stance and I fell each time. But that some technique doesn't work if my knees are bent significantly. The technique he was planning only works if the technique can straighten the leg, which in my guess he couldn't do it. I let him give extreme pressure and it still didn't work I had to make some adjustments to keep the technique ineffective and I did so my cutting my shinbone into his collar bone. He continued to put more pressure than he would ever be able to use in a real fight and I became concern that he woudl either damage his collar bone or that I will shift in the wrong way and would have a sudden increase of full pressure straightening out my leg. I also did the Shuai Jiao escape and that thing worked sweet. It helped me to escape the ankle lock. The only real concern about that is if I would have the same result with shoes on. I'm hesitant to try it because I'm afraid that my shoes will cut into his face as I pull it out. That's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that the shoe helps secure the lock.

 

[Hanzou]

If you are talking about "knee stomp" then nope. I'm actually in the best position to defend against that.

No, I'm talking about single-leg takedowns after your opponent has grabbed your leg and started to "run the pipe" or otherwise manipulate your leg and thus your balance.

I used to have people stomp me in knee to prove it. I told the MMA guy to do it and I think he hurt is foot. Round house kicks to the knee, I see coming a mile a way. because people show more movement for some reason when their eyes are focused downward. The only risk that I've encountered so far is being caught shifting weight to my lead leg. If been timed a few times like that but not many. I don't consider this a weakness of a stance because it still exists in higher stances.

There is a Shuai Jiao escapes that works on someone grabbing that front legs. It fits right with the stance.

TBF, there are single-leg shoots that go for that back leg over the front leg in wide stances. Yeah, some guys are that good at it.

I had the MMA guy try one of the the techniques he was planning to get me with, so I tested it with the high stance and the mid level stance. . I let him put it and felt the effect of it. It was effective against a high stance and I fell each time. But that some technique doesn't work if my knees are bent significantly. The technique he was planning only works if the technique can straighten the leg, which in my guess he couldn't do it. I let him give extreme pressure and it still didn't work I had to make some adjustments to keep the technique ineffective and I did so my cutting my shinbone into his collar bone. He continued to put more pressure than he would ever be able to use in a real fight and I became concern that he woudl either damage his collar bone or that I will shift in the wrong way and would have a sudden increase of full pressure straightening out my leg. I also did the Shuai Jiao escape and that thing worked sweet. It helped me to escape the ankle lock. The only real concern about that is if I would have the same result with shoes on. I'm hesitant to try it because I'm afraid that my shoes will cut into his face as I pull it out. That's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that the shoe helps secure the lock.

Would you happen to have an example of that SJ technique? I'm very curious to see what you're talking about here.

 

[Oily Dragon]

In the past 40 years, SC in US has been evolved into combat SC (punch + kick + lock + throw).

Here are some "Combat SC" demo clips by my students (and my student's students).

Complete with Mortal Kombat remix. Love this.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, I'm talking about single-leg takedowns after your opponent has grabbed your leg and started to "run the pipe" or otherwise manipulate your leg and thus your balance.

Having sparred in this stance before, I have seen it as you describe. It's a much longer distance to cover, even my MMA sparring partner was amazed at how the low stance made "the usual" more difficult to pull off. I know he's been thinking about finding a weakness., eventually he will find out what I already know. "Kick the lead lead to disrupt the balance." Once my body fights to regain balance, it will forget about all other defenses.

TBF, there are single-leg shoots that go for that back leg over the front leg in wide stances. Yeah, some guys are that good at it.

Yes there are some that are good at it, but even so it is still a much greater distance to close than you realize. That's why my MMA sparring partner was surprised, he wasn't expecting the distance to be as big. I still haven't done full sparring with it meaning I haven't attacked while in the stance. I just did defense, while my sparring partner could use what ever he wanted. Who knows may the story will be different time we go at it. I'll probably just defend again because right now I just care about my legs lasting. I will be satisfied when I can stay in that low stance and move around in it for 5 minutes. without my legs tiring. I have big mountain to climb but I think it's possible. I also know that my sparring partner will be brainstorming on how to break down that stance. i like that he tries to figure things out instead of brute forcing it. That means he can change on the fly and it also means that my earlier success will be more difficult to repeat. Which is part of the reason why I don't want to get into my offensive tactics when in a low stance.

Would you happen to have an example of that SJ technique? I'm very curious to see what you're talking about here.

It's the exercise at 0:36 Drawing leg and Basin leg at 0:50 are the ones I practice.

This is the Explanation of Drawing leg. I do the crappy version of this. I have no flexibility at all for this so I'm just taking my time with it. No rush.