" Chinese Wrestling "

[frank raud]

Yes, sweeps are good. Anything that I don't have to turn my back towards the opponent. Sweeps are fast.

It's easier than people think to resist those throws. I can tell you just simple stiff arms will make it a lot harder for him to pull you in to throw you. Even after he turn to try to throw you over the hip, you just sit lower, it will make it very hard for him to pull you over the hip or leg. People that practice a few months of Judo or whatever knows very well how to do it.

and yet, millions of people all around the world manage to throw people whether the stiff arm them or not. It almost like they were taught proper judo.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Printe

Yes, talk is easy, so far, nobody did it that well.

Surprisingly most striking TMA practitioners don't think that fighting in a low stance is realistic. Well it's a surprise until you see that most TMA schools are striking focused with very little to know serious grappling training. This means that the low stance is of no use to them in the context of striking. But when you look at grappling schools, it's the high stance that is useless.

I've talked to some teachers and they agree with you that the low stance is useless, but that's only because they are trying to use it for striking and not for grappling. The low horse stance is the only low stance that I know that allows a person to strike and kick from.

If you want to have good options for punching, kicking, and good grappling defense, then that is going to be the optimum position to be in, The practitioner's fighting stance should be a mid level stance. Grappling stance should be a low stance. This way when Kung Fu says "drop stance" it actually works. Dropping from high stance to low stance takes longer than dropping from mid level to low level stance.

You'll see a lot of Kung Fu people try to drop from high to low and still get caught. It just takes too long. There are exceptions to this but for the most part, this is going to be the issue.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So there comes time to say it doesn't work. There are ways that works, so it's better forget the theoretical way, and go for the practical way.

I won't be saying this, especially since I've had good success with it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In Judo this is important. Unbalancing & setting up the throw

Not sure what the sound was saying, but from the what I saw I liked it lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So most fighters do the smart thing and defend the shot first.

That's what I always tell students. Address the grappling first then strike. Better to stall the shoot then strike, then to strike and miss. The flying knee is a good option because it removes what the grappler is aiming for and replaces it with the knee. No aiming necessary but the flying knee in general is an advance skill. It's one of the hardest things student have trouble with.

There have been a lot of people who have successfully executed Judo throws in high level MMA.

@0:30. That happened to me this year. I was trying to take my sparring partner's back and he threw me. I forgot that he knew how to throw people and I positioned myself for a good throw which he was able to get. This was in light sparring. I didn't try to fight it because he had the timing right so I just went for a ride. In that situation he didn't turn his back to me. I was creeping around to take his back and he caught on and threw me. He reminded me that there are more ways to put someone on the ground other than the shoot. The clinch is full of opportunities for a throw.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I believe the issue is that while animals were sprawling when "grappling" with each other, many martial arts didn't teach their students how to do it.

Not many. Most focus on striking and because they go Style A vs Style A. They usually end up training against low quality grappling and walk-troughs. The best option is to just partner with a school that grapples and tell them to just come at them. In my opinion the best grappling to train against is from someone who does striking and grappling. This means that the grappling is often set up off of punching and kicking. With my last teacher the sprawl lesson was a one day event and I never saw another lesson from it.

As for Shiao Jiao (sp?) I would love to see more of it in a cross-grappling environment versus (western) Wrestling, Judo or BJJ. Unfortunately, I only tend to see it in a vacuum, which is rather odd in the current martial environment.

This will cause problems in effectiveness because the context and approach will always be focuses on Style A vs Style A.

 

[Hanzou]

In my opinion the best grappling to train against is from someone who does striking and grappling. This means that the grappling is often set up off of punching and kicking.

I disagree. Go to the people who do DLTs (and sprawls) the best: Wrestlers. If you can stuff a D1 wrestler's DLT, you're in good shape.

This will cause problems in effectiveness because the context and approach will always be focuses on Style A vs Style A.

Nothing wrong with seeing how SJ stacks up to other grappling systems, and seeing what other grappling systems can learn from SJ. We don't see that too often because SJ practitioners don't really operate outside their zone. This is happening with Judo as well, and it's disappointing.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That happened to me this year. I was trying to take my sparring partner's back and he threw me. I forgot that he knew how to throw people and I positioned myself for a good throw which he was able to get.

Same here. I had a new sparring partner whose Judo was much better than I realized. I took his back and had only a split second to realize that I'd been suckered before I went flying. We were sparring no-gi and I rarely run into people who are that good at hitting the shoulder throw without a jacket to grab onto.

It was a good lesson though. After that I remembered to always make sure my hips were lower than my opponent's whenever I went go for the back.

 

[Oily Dragon]

On what planet does this logic originate from? The double leg takedown is easily one of the most effective takedowns in wrestling or martial arts period. Which is why it was banned in Judo competition, because it pretty much negated the entire stand up curriculum.

So true.

And get this, I'm watching The Terminator last night to fall asleep, and never noticed til now, that Arnold (or his stunt double) gets taken down by Rick Rossovich (or his stunt double) with a flawless double leg in that bedroom screen.

Of course, Rick immediately dies, but the TD worked. It got me thinking, what kind of takedown might work on a humanoid hunter killer robot, and found myself agreeing, it'd have to be a double leg.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Nothing wrong with seeing how SJ stacks up to other grappling systems, and seeing what other grappling systems can learn from SJ. We don't see that too often because SJ practitioners don't really operate outside their zone. This is happening with Judo as well, and it's disappointing.

Honestly I think the best place to see Shuai Jiao technique in a more diverse environment is in San shou (where if you look you will even find double leg takedowns at the high level).

In fact San Shou fighters have a wide range of wrestling backgrounds, so thats where SJ really gets to mix with judo, BJJ, sambo etc.

SJ like you said, is like Judo, a lot of those guys stuck to their ruleset and are not full contact mixed martial artists. But there are SJ guys that also fight ammy and pro.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Also, Hanzou this thread and your avatar got me thinking about one of the greatest pro wrestlers of all time.

Anybody else know who I mean? Here's a clue.

 

[Hanzou]

Honestly I think the best place to see Shuai Jiao technique in a more diverse environment is in San shou (where if you look you will even find double leg takedowns at the high level).

In fact San Shou fighters have a wide range of wrestling backgrounds, so thats where SJ really gets to mix with judo, BJJ, sambo etc.

SJ like you said, is like Judo, a lot of those guys stuck to their ruleset and are not full contact mixed martial artists. But there are SJ guys that also fight ammy and pro.

I love San Shou, but the lack of ground fighting kills it for me.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I love San Shou, but the lack of ground fighting kills it for me.

San Shou fighters with BJJ and other ground training are pretty awesome. I know quite a few personally. The common factor is these are people who don't mind learning all sorts of standing and ground sparring. It's all good.

If they really want to mix both, they bring it to an MMA gym/comp. If they want to be Kung Fu Gentlepeople, they go to a San Shou tourney.

There's a rule set for everybody nowadays. That's how I spot fake martial arts. They have no rule set.

 

[Alan0354]

On what planet does this logic originate from? The double leg takedown is easily one of the most effective takedowns in wrestling or martial arts period. Which is why it was banned in Judo competition, because it pretty much negated the entire stand up curriculum.

I am glad someone actually know this to support my assertion. I just base on watching the UFC fights. So far, the only effective defense of shoot is spraw. It's ugly like a duck, but that really neutralize a lot of the shoot.

It is easy to sit back and talk here, that you can do this, do that. Then blame on timing. They keep practice and practice, problem is there is limitation of reaction time and speed if the move is too complicate.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I am glad someone actually know this to support my assertion. I just base on watching the UFC fights. So far, the only effective defense of shoot is spraw. It's ugly like a duck, but that really neutralize a lot of the shoot.

It is easy to sit back and talk here, that you can do this, do that. Then blame on timing. They keep practice and practice, problem is there is limitation of reaction time and speed if the move is too complicate.

Well, there is one better defense.

Don't be there.

That my friend is one of the funniest things to see, a shoot that misses the target. And a blown shoot is an opportunity, not an obstacle.

 

[Alan0354]

I believe the issue is that while animals were sprawling when "grappling" with each other, many martial arts didn't teach their students how to do it. This is why if you view the Gracie in action tapes, or even the first UFC, you see people getting taken down rather easily by the Gracie's sloppy DLTs over and over again.

It's too ugly, there's no grace. That's no no for a lot of those style. Seems like they rather get their butt kick than to stood that low to spraw.

As for Shiao Jiao (sp?) I would love to see more of it in a cross-grappling environment versus (western) Wrestling, Judo or BJJ. Unfortunately, I only tend to see it in a vacuum, which is rather odd in the current martial environment.

I am surprised too, I thought 30 years after Gracie completely whooped their butt, they would be humble and learn.

 

[Jimmythebull]

outstanding posts Gentlemen !

 

[Hanzou]

I am glad someone actually know this to support my assertion. I just base on watching the UFC fights. So far, the only effective defense of shoot is spraw. It's ugly like a duck, but that really neutralize a lot of the shoot.

It is easy to sit back and talk here, that you can do this, do that. Then blame on timing. They keep practice and practice, problem is there is limitation of reaction time and speed if the move is too complicate.

What's worse is that it isn't something you can dedicate a class or two towards and call it a wrap. You need to spend time both learning it, and defending against it. The technique is THAT devastating to stand up fighting.

Further, the DLT has evolved with grappling and fighting in general, so those sloppy DLTs from the 90s are nothing compared to the crisp combination leg attacks I'm currently seeing in MMA and competitive grappling.

 

[JowGaWolf]

On what planet does this logic originate from? The double leg takedown is easily one of the most effective takedowns in wrestling or martial arts period. Which is why it was banned in Judo competition, because it pretty much negated the entire stand up curriculum.

Because a wider stance will made the double leg significantly more difficult to pull off. You can only retreat as far as your rear leg. If your rear leg is still in danger when you step back with your lead leg then your feet are too close together and you are at risk of being the victim of a double take down. This is why I teach students not to put more than one leg in danger and to use a longer stance. If the stance is low. Stance height will also affect the placement of the feet. The taller you stand the closer your feet will be. The lower your stance the further apart they will be. The only exception to this are the low stances that we see BJJ and Judo practitioners in non striking competition. For example like this. The only issue with this is that you wouldn't stand like this in front of someone who has good kicks and punches.

This guy talks about the same thing I've been talking about for years, which is to take that mid level stance and go between mid level and low level as needed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

On what planet does this logic originate from? The double leg takedown is easily one of the most effective takedowns in wrestling or martial arts period. Which is why it was banned in Judo competition, because it pretty much negated the entire stand up curriculum.

I wish some of you guys could spar with me so I can show you first hand.