Chin na training

Wing Woo Gar

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Has anyone done any extensive Chin Na training? Would anyone care to share their experiences? I have been lucky to meet Dr Yang Jwing Ming and live just down the road from him. I started training Chin na with him this past summer and I should be through all the level one stuff by new year. I still teach my Gung fu classes in addition and a few of my training brothers and 2 of my students have begun Chin na as well. Im 52 and have several old hand injuries that make level one Chin na practice a tad bit painful. I am enjoying the training immensely as I am often just one of three students with Dr Yang spending the entire time with us. Yesterday we trained for about 90 minutes before I went to teach my Gung fu class. I feel like it adds something extra to my workout energy to do Chin na early before gung fu training.
 

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I trained some Qinna with Dr Yang when he was still in Boston. My experience is it was painful. Trained some with my Yang Shifu, experience there was it was surprising and painful. Trained some with one of my Xingyiquan Shifus...again...it was painful
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Chin Na is a good training to understand the "key point". In striking art, a punch on the chess, or a punch on the belly don't make much difference. People intend to ignore the "key point". In Chin Na, the key point is very important.

For example, the key point for:

1. Wrist lock - raise elbow. Most people understand to sink wrist. But some people don't know raise elbow.
2. Head lock - elbow point down. Most people's head lock won't work because their elbow is pointing horizontally.
3. ...

MA training is to find the right key to open the right lock. With the right key, you can open a lock effortless.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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I trained some Qinna with Dr Yang when he was still in Boston. My experience is it was painful. Trained some with my Yang Shifu, experience there was it was surprising and painful. Trained some with one of my Xingyiquan Shifus...again...it was painful
Yes, that is my experience as well, painful. I find that I can realistically only train it 2-3 times a week. I love it though. Pain is relative, I am fairly pain tolerant, it isnt worse than an 8 hour tattoo session.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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Chin Na is a good training to understand the "key point". In striking art, a punch on the chess, or a punch on the belly don't make much difference. People intend to ignore the "key point". In Chin Na, the key point is very important.

For example, the key point for:

1. Wrist lock - raise elbow. Most people understand to sink wrist. But some people don't know raise elbow.
2. Head lock - elbow point down. Most people's head lock won't work because their elbow is pointing horizontally.
3. ...

MA training is to find the right key to open the right lock. With the right key, you can open a lock effortless.
I am enjoying it very much, Dr. Yang is a great teacher. I find it easier to shut down the techniques rather than attempt escape after the lock is applied. I am just a rank beginner though so that might change. Good structure seems to be the best defense so far.
 

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I have experience with Qinna in the context of Chen Taijiquan.

I also have experience escaping Qinna methods as well.

A lot of the Qinna methods can be found in our form practice.

Pain is a bonus in my view. Even if someone doesn't feel pain, that often doesn't change the fact that they can't escape or that their structure is being manipulated.

In my view, Qinna is an opportunistic toolkit, meaning it's something I would use when the situation presents itself.

When I watched Rokas (former Aikido practitioner) tried Aikido against an MMA guy, he did things I would never do. If someone is jabbing me, I would never try to aim for their wrist in hopes of catching it. That's such a small and fast target that it's a hopeless endeavor - not to mention when someone is wearing giant gloves that cover their wrists, it's rather infeasible to grab it because the circumference of their padded wrist is too large. And even if you could secure the wrists, you can't really bend their wrist due to the glove's reinforcement.

1701189069522.png


Even without gloves, I think this is the wrong context for Qinna. It's not a primary go-to strategy against a striker. Maybe as a secondary or tertiary step - but not the very first thing you do against a punch.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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I have experience with Qinna in the context of Chen Taijiquan.

I also have experience escaping Qinna methods as well.

A lot of the Qinna methods can be found in our form practice.

Pain is a bonus in my view. Even if someone doesn't feel pain, that often doesn't change the fact that they can't escape or that their structure is being manipulated.

In my view, Qinna is an opportunistic toolkit, meaning it's something I would use when the situation presents itself.

When I watched Rokas (former Aikido practitioner) tried Aikido against an MMA guy, he did things I would never do. If someone is jabbing me, I would never try to aim for their wrist in hopes of catching it. That's such a small and fast target that it's a hopeless endeavor - not to mention when someone is wearing giant gloves that cover their wrists, it's rather infeasible to grab it because the circumference of their padded wrist is too large. And even if you could secure the wrists, you can't really bend their wrist due to the glove's reinforcement.

View attachment 30346

Even without gloves, I think this is the wrong context for Qinna. It's not a primary go-to strategy against a striker. Maybe as a secondary or tertiary step - but not the very first thing you do against a punch.
My take is that most of the techniques Ive learned so far dont work well if the opponent also knows the technique. After a couple of lessons I could subvert most attempts at locking me with just holding my structure. Its fun, and extremely useful knowledge. If people try to use strength rather than angles, the potential for injury is quite high. I think of it as a useful adjunct to my normal training, just some additional options if, as you say, an opportunity presents itself.
 

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My take is that most of the techniques Ive learned so far dont work well if the opponent also knows the technique. After a couple of lessons I could subvert most attempts at locking me with just holding my structure. Its fun, and extremely useful knowledge. If people try to use strength rather than angles, the potential for injury is quite high. I think of it as a useful adjunct to my normal training, just some additional options if, as you say, an opportunity presents itself.

I can definitely see why many would find this to be the case.

But that's usually because of their approach to Qinna. For example, if someone's plan is to grab someone's wrist, many simple-minded folks will just directly reach out their hand and grab the opponent's wrist.

The opponent will then think: "Oh! He wants my wrist! I won't let him!" So, they tense up and resist, making Qinna either infeasible or too sluggish.

And then people think that Qinna doesn't work because their training partner sees it coming, is familiar with the technique, and has developed the habit of nullifying it since it has been done to them so many times.

But there's a more advanced approach. It's a more clever approach. That approach is something like this:

If I want to control someone's wrist, I may target the elbow first.

If I want to control the elbow, I may target the wrist first.

If I want to control the shoulder, I may target the elbow first.

If I want to control your torso, I may target your shoulder first.

Unlike the simpleminded approach that directly targets the joint you had in mind, this approach is far more clever and tricky because you are targeting the neighboring joint as a setup for the actual joint you want to target. You are also messing with the opponent's psychology.

If someone has a guard up protecting their face and I apply pressure against their wrist, the opponent's natural reaction might be to resist me. By resisting me with his wrist, his elbow is vulnerable. If I push against his elbow, he will resist me at that point. But then his wrist may be left ignored. Humans are terrible at focusing on multiple things at the same time, and there's a physiological aspect at play where tensing one area seemingly causes another area to be vulnerable - both physically and mentally.

Humans are incapable of resisting in every single direction simultaneously. It's very hard to resist left and right at the same time, and should they choose to stiffen up completely, either some other area of their body is left unattended or they are ill-prepared for getting hit.

Because the joint I target may not be the actual joint I want, it's much harder for the opponent to know what I'm planning to do because I am messing with their head and toying with their intention.

In my experience, through this approach, Qinna has a much higher success rate even though the training partner is already familiar with the techniques. There is a tricky strategy at play where you are both controlling where their mental attention is allocated and where they are resisting you. You trick them into resisting how you want them to resist. And if they choose to not resist, your job is even easier.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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I can definitely see why many would find this to be the case.

But that's usually because of their approach to Qinna. For example, if someone's plan is to grab someone's wrist, many simple-minded folks will just directly reach out their hand and grab the opponent's wrist.

The opponent will then think: "Oh! He wants my wrist! I won't let him!" So, they tense up and resist, making Qinna either infeasible or too sluggish.

And then people think that Qinna doesn't work because their training partner sees it coming, is familiar with the technique, and has developed the habit of nullifying it since it has been done to them so many times.

But there's a more advanced approach. It's a more clever approach. That approach is something like this:

If I want to control someone's wrist, I may target the elbow first.

If I want to control the elbow, I may target the wrist first.

If I want to control the shoulder, I may target the elbow first.

If I want to control your torso, I may target your shoulder first.

Unlike the simpleminded approach that directly targets the joint you had in mind, this approach is far more clever and tricky because you are targeting the neighboring joint as a setup for the actual joint you want to target. You are also messing with the opponent's psychology.

If someone has a guard up protecting their face and I apply pressure against their wrist, the opponent's natural reaction might be to resist me. By resisting me with his wrist, his elbow is vulnerable. If I push against his elbow, he will resist me at that point. But then his wrist may be left ignored. Humans are terrible at focusing on multiple things at the same time, and there's a physiological aspect at play where tensing one area seemingly causes another area to be vulnerable - both physically and mentally.

Humans are incapable of resisting in every single direction simultaneously. It's very hard to resist left and right at the same time, and should they choose to stiffen up completely, either some other area of their body is left unattended or they are ill-prepared for getting hit.

Because the joint I target may not be the actual joint I want, it's much harder for the opponent to know what I'm planning to do because I am messing with their head and toying with their intention.

In my experience, through this approach, Qinna has a much higher success rate even though the training partner is already familiar with the techniques. There is a tricky strategy at play where you are both controlling where their mental attention is allocated and where they are resisting you. You trick them into resisting how you want them to resist. And if they choose to not resist, your job is even easier.
I agree, yielding and feinting are a distinct part of what I practice in any case, whether boxing or in Chin na practice. Its a lot harder to sink those locks when someone is punching me or whatever. Lots to learn yet. No rush.
 

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I probably mentioned this before but Dr. Yang sort of got me started on kung fu (indirectly) along with some other key people. So I had watched and read a lot of his Chin na stuff before I stepped inside a kwoon.

When I learned Chin na for real, it was very effective stuff, and applicable in practically every grappling environment. Joint locks in wrestling, judo, BJJ, etc are all essentially Qin na with safety built in. The kimura is a great example of chin na, if you have to convince the non CMA crowd.

So I guess Chin na is my specialty, if I have one. Why? Because I don't like to hit people, I prefer control.

It's such a broad topic, well beyond grabbing wrists. And from a purely CMA point of view, there is also a lot of overlap with tui na massage, bone injury treatments, dim mak.

I find I use dit da jow mostly on my elbows nowadays for this reason. Qin na is hard on them whether you are giving or receiving.
 

Oily Dragon

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Even without gloves, I think this is the wrong context for Qinna. It's not a primary go-to strategy against a striker. Maybe as a secondary or tertiary step - but not the very first thing you do against a punch.
Actually, it would be the first thing I'd do against a punchy dude, I'd swallow the punch, clinch, and work to start controlling an arm. This is especially true if the "striker" is skilled, you don't want them throwing at you nonstop. The best place for your head to be, is right next to theirs. You want to get deep inside where you can control them. Boxers can't do this because of how limited clinching is, but other stand up arts it's fair game.

You see this a lot in San Shou (fingers free), where one fighter starts throwing hands and the other uses those attacks to set up throws, which are worth more points. Like you said, it doesn't take much more than controlling an elbow to force someone down or wherever you want them to go.
 

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Actually, it would be the first thing I'd do against a punchy dude, I'd swallow the punch, clinch, and work to start controlling an arm. This is especially true if the "striker" is skilled, you don't want them throwing at you nonstop. The best place for your head to be, is right next to theirs. You want to get deep inside where you can control them. Boxers can't do this because of how limited clinching is, but other stand up arts it's fair game.

You see this a lot in San Shou (fingers free), where one fighter starts throwing hands and the other uses those attacks to set up throws, which are worth more points. Like you said, it doesn't take much more than controlling an elbow to force someone down or wherever you want them to go.
Sure, but notice how "start controlling an arm" was the last thing you listed. It wasn't the first thing you listed.

There were steps before that - hence my mentioning of Qinna being secondary or tertiary.

A primary step would be like parrying a punch.

Then, it might be sticking to the opponent, trying to sustain that point of contact.

The actual Qinna part doesn't happen until later on.

In contrast, trying to catch a jab by grabbing the wrist is like placing Qinna as a primary step.
 

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I'm currently only doing the conditioning and strength exercises but haven't done any of the techniques yet. My grip was never as strong as it needs to be in order to pull a lot of the techniques off. I think once I get to an acceptable level, then I'll start working on the techniques while improving my strength. I'm currently using a 10lb slam ball to strengthen my grip and hopefully I can move to a 15lb slam ball before the end of the year. Recently I picked up the 10lb ball and thought it was the 8lb ball. I'm getting stronger but I'm not sure if I'm ready for a 5lb jumb in weight. 15lbs may be a bit too heavy and then there's the question of what should the stopping point be.

I'll probably try some techniques on the muay thai guy that comes in to work on the speed bag. I won't know how much stronger my grip truly is until I give it a try during sparring.
 

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When I watched Rokas (former Aikido practitioner) tried Aikido against an MMA guy, he did things I would never do. If someone is jabbing me, I would never try to aim for their wrist in hopes of catching it.
I was talking about this on similar lines last night. I basically saying that I believe a lot of martial arts systems fail when you are "waiting for a punch to come in." I'm not sure when it happened but martial arts became this thing that we do only when we are attacked first. Because of that mentality many fail in learning how to use a technique.

In term of grappling a lot of it works better when the person initiates the attack and controls how the opponent reacts. A perfect example, is the clinch work I've been training against. If I take a passive role, then clinch finds me very quickly. If I use the time used to go after a clinch as a window for my attack then I come out much better. My theory for the clinch is simple. "Attack the clinch attempt. and take advantage of my opponent's effort to adjust the clinch." I think I'll be able to pull off some nice locks by taking this approach.

I think Rokas has the problem that he has because he failed to just really understand some really basic concepts that holds true in all systems. The first one being to follow the main concept of a system because that's the concept in which the techniques work. I went to look at his latest video after seeing this post and it appears that he was able to pull off some of his Aikido techniques now.

In his previous videos he's brute forcing Aikido. My thoughts on that are the same for all martial arts. If you have to brute force it then you are doing something wrong. In his latest video, he finally comes to this realization and thinks of the main concept of Aikdo and as a result improved. He still brutes forces it a little but it's an improvement. If he keeps working on his Aikido then he'll begin to figure more stuff out the more he actually tries to use it in sparring. Which is the #1 concept in all martial arts. Use what you train.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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a lot of martial arts systems fail when you are "waiting for a punch to come in."
This is why I don't like the self-defense approach that you always assume you are the good guy and everybody on earth are all bad guys.

Instead of waiting for your opponent to punch you, why don't you punch him first? Just pretend you and your opponent are fighting in the ring. Whoever throws the 1st punch won't make any difference.

In self-defense, you are the good guy. In combat, you can be the bad guy too.
 

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I think Rokas has the problem that he has because he failed to just really understand some really basic concepts that holds true in all systems. The first one being to follow the main concept of a system because that's the concept in which the techniques work. I went to look at his latest video after seeing this post and it appears that he was able to pull off some of his Aikido techniques now.

I think this video speaks for itself:


Even as a non-Aikido practitioner, it's very blatantly clear to me that this looks nothing like the traditional Aikido I would normally see.

While people may criticize Aikido, if they were intellectually honest, I don't think they can (in good faith) say that this is representative of Aikido by any stretch of the imagination.

It's like he's ballroom dancing. There's even music in the background. And this is supposed to be at a Dan level.

Despite his humble demeanor, I feel like Rokas hasn't been entirely honest with us regarding his background. Maybe it's too embarrassing to admit in hindsight, but I do wonder if he realizes how bad the school he attended was. By Aikido standards, this seems extraordinarily bad.
 

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My take is that most of the techniques Ive learned so far dont work well if the opponent also knows the technique. After a couple of lessons I could subvert most attempts at locking me with just holding my structure. Its fun, and extremely useful knowledge. If people try to use strength rather than angles, the potential for injury is quite high. I think of it as a useful adjunct to my normal training, just some additional options if, as you say, an opportunity presents itself.
Not necessarily true. If you pummel them first and make them primed for the lock, throw or break, then they work well. Unfortunately you cant pummel classmates. Well you can, but.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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My take is that most of the techniques Ive learned so far dont work well if the opponent also knows the technique.
You can always borrow your opponent's force. If you bend your opponent's arm in one direction, when he resists, you then borrow his resisting force and bend his arm into the opposite direction. The harder that you can apply your 1st force, the easier you can apply the 2nd force.

In one Chinese wrestling tournament, I dragged my opponent and my opponent's resisting force was so strong, I released my grip, my opponent flew away and fell down. I won that round without using any throwing skill.
 

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I think this video speaks for itself:


Even as a non-Aikido practitioner, it's very blatantly clear to me that this looks nothing like the traditional Aikido I would normally see.

While people may criticize Aikido, if they were intellectually honest, I don't think they can (in good faith) say that this is representative of Aikido by any stretch of the imagination.

It's like he's ballroom dancing. There's even music in the background. And this is supposed to be at a Dan level.

Despite his humble demeanor, I feel like Rokas hasn't been entirely honest with us regarding his background. Maybe it's too embarrassing to admit in hindsight, but I do wonder if he realizes how bad the school he attended was. By Aikido standards, this seems extraordinarily bad.
That video isn't where he is now. It's a long story but to sum it up he started out with aikido then learned the hard way that he didn't know how to actually use it. Then he bashed Aikido and other martial arts because of his own failure in his training. Then he learned mma and started seeing enough similarities that made him want to take a second look at aikido. If I had to guess, MMA fighters don't bash traditional martial arts as as we have been guided to believe.

I'm guessing that rubbed off on him as well so he doesn't dissolve Aikikido like he used to. At thus point his d videos are irrelevant he should take those videos down but I know he keeps them up for revenue.

I still think he has a long way to go. It's going to be a long learning ptocess as long as he goes against the functional principles of Aikido.

The day I had big learning leaps in Jow Ga was when I stopped trying to make Jow Ga kung fu work as zi thought it should work.

I don't follow him as much as just curious when some one brings him up.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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Not necessarily true. If you pummel them first and make them primed for the lock, throw or break, then they work well. Unfortunately you cant pummel classmates. Well you can, but.
The thing here is that its about angles, not grip strength or application of force.
 
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