Children starting young - would you have handled this differently?

[Ceicei]

Just thinking over several different threads that touched on this topic regarding children. There seemed to be a conflict in two viewpoints:

1) Children are encouraged to start martial arts when young for their protection, confidence, discipline, and a host of other reasons. [Some dojos start classes with children as early as 3 years old.]

2) The idea of children reaching upper ranks (specifically black belts) early are vilified in several threads. [The preference of distinction is to call them "Junior BB" so that their rank is not comparable to the "full fledged BB".]

It is inevitable that children starting martial arts early will reach upper ranks while growing up.

Would you have handled the training of children differently so that the fallacy of "equal rank" doesn't occur? Is this just an issue of semantics and resolved only by comunication? Or are you of the opinion children should start later in life (in other words, achieve "maturity" enough to handle classes instead of starting at 3 or 4?) Could the idea of a different color or a mixture of colors be a possibility as a Jr BB rather than using black? Would using other colors help avoid the "ego" or attitude that often is attached to the color black?

Main question: What are the real issues with children's training?

Another related tangent: Assume for a moment that politics, personalities, economics, etc., aren't issues or problems, if you can run an ideal dojo (with children involved as students) and there is an ideal rank structure, what would the structure be like?

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

A friend said he is of the opinion children's training should be rankless (no belts, but have other reward or measurement system) until they turn 16 or 18 and can start with the adult rank system.

- Ceicei

 

[kenpo tiger]

Ceicei,

This is an interesting thread for me, as I teach some of the children's classes at my school. Some observations:

1) The youngest members of our school are four years old. They take half hour classes because of their age and limited attention span. They are mostly taught basic punching and kicking skills as well as listening, sitting quietly, and paying attention when it's not their turn. Some skills we take for granted in children even a year older are simply not present at this age - such as coordination of hands and feet in an extremely simple form. We showed these little guys this form, which is really just a simple drill created by my head instructor, and it's amazing to see the difference in learning and motor skills. Two of them got it immediately (it's simply taking a step and doing a claw hand - two forward and two backward), and three of the others were clueless unless I did it with them, 'talking' the form. One might conclude from this that maybe four (or three, as you stated) is too young to start a child in a martial art. Maybe for motor skills. For instilling the discipline aspect, I think it is just fine.

2) As to belts, rank, and so on. I don't know that, if a child has been coming to class, fulfilling the requirements when he or she tests, and promoting that you can simply say to them "no black belt until you're 18". Kids need reinforcement for achieving goals, and that, in my opinion and from observation, is what receiving a belt and promotion accomplished. Perhaps having fewer belts? Maybe different colors or a different color sequence? I do know that there are black belts with white stripes which are utilized in some schools as pre-black belts. They show rank while making it clear that it's a separate rank from a black belt. Maybe that's the answer.

3) Our kids have to learn a set of techs created by my instructor as Little Dragons (ages 5 through 7). Some of the 7 years old Little Dragons start to get the initial Yellow belt techs, and, if they've been there from the start, attended class, and so on, can and are promoted. When they get to Juniors, they begin learning a limited set of techs for each belt level. Those who are upper ranked belts have to make up the techs they didn't learn at the lower levels, and this also applies once they age-up to teens/adults. It does create a little confusion. For example, there's one Junior who just aged-up from Little Dragons. He's a purple belt, deserves to stand in that section at line-up, but doesn't know all of the techs. He comes to class, practices at home, and works very very hard. You cannot tell him he's not a 'real' purple belt. He is.

Besides all this. If a child sticks with his training in spite of all the attractive sports programs out there, all the academic requirements that are put on children at an earlier age, and if he knows the material, he deserves his black belt. Adults should be secure enough in themselves to accept that here is a person who has achieved something most adults and about 99% of kids don't. At least in our school, you aren't a black belt until you have demonstrated that you know the material and have put in the time. I don't know that age should matter. There's one eleven year old who will be the first junior black belt in our school. He conducts himself with more dignity and maturity than most people far older than he (most of the time - after all, he IS still a child!), and he knows his stuff. You [collective you] can't tell me he doesn't deserve what he's worked so hard for. KT

 

[Mark Weiser]

The youngest student I will take in is 7 years old due to several factors.

• At this age they should have the attention span needed to study
• they are starting out in school and they are going to be getting into possible situations that may need MA Training.
• Young Childern need to be taught self Defense not a System. This requires a specialized program for the student and insturctor. Formal Training for obtaining BB should start around 12 or 13 years of age.
• Simple movements and the STUN AND RUN training is advantagous at these ages. (7-13)

You should have a reward system in place for the children not a belt rank. There are simple badges, Certificates, Trophies, Ribbons, Food Items, Movie Passes, Video Rental, Pictures for them and Family, Video of them training, Etc.....

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

 

[sifu nick]

We start our Little Dragons Class (ages 3-5) with their own slightly differnet belt ranking system. Classes our 30 min and we teach them very basic kicking and punching. Also forward rolls and falls. Simple self defense is taught but the emphasis is on the stranger danger program. All classes end with a game being played.

 

[satans.barber]

Our kids classes are ages 6-13, and seniors are 14+. The ranks the juniors hold are junior ranks, so a junior green belt does not equal a senior green belt and so on. It's problematic when kids move from the junior to the senior class, but this doesn't crop up that often (twice in the last 8 years in my memory, one of which left the senior class almost immediately anyway). Juniors leaving at black belt are given a senior purple belt, and they have to learn the techniques from yellow-purple and demonstrate them all at their blue tip grading. Juniors under black usually just re-start at yellow. It's messy, but as I said it hardly ever happens as we lose most kids before age ~11 as they lose interest in training (in Britain, apparently, standing around on street corners is more interesting... :idunno: ).

With regards to younger kids, I don't think they should be given rank at all in the way they're not made to take exams at school, and I don't think they should be taught with any formal structure. Kids of, say, 7 and under I think should be in a tiddlers class of their own, which has mainly games and fun with a bit of padwork and common sense thrown in. They've got the attention span of gnats and get bored if you don't change tack every 2 minutes, so trying to get them to learn proper skills is very difficult! This is in my experience of course, I've seen the kids at the Shaolin Temple (on TV), lines of them aged 6 doing form in perfect synch and being well behaved, so it's a discipline issue I guess. I can't make my juniors get up at 5am and cane them when they're naughty though!

I say kids of 7 and under because in my experience 8 (+-1 year depending on the individual's charatcer) would be about the best age for kids to start training properly. By that age they're growing up a bit and are getting out of the giddy younger years, and are ready to accept responsibility, rank and skills. They're also maturing physically enough to be able to perform more of the syllabus (I've not yet seen a 6 year old who could do a spinning crescent kick!).

It's a tricky subject though, I mean ideally you'd run a tiddlers class, juniors class, senior class, women only class, gentler older peeps (50+) class, black belt and instructors' class etc. etc. etc. ... before you knew it you'd be running umpteen classes a day! Unless it's a full time job, you own a dojo and have got the energy of Billy Blanks this isn't going to happen! So, someone's always going to be unhappy, whether it's your under-represented women's section of the senior class, older juniors who feel like they're training with 'kids', or whatever.

I wish I had the answer...!

Ian.

 

[Rob Broad]

I have a program devised for taking children on as students as early as 4-5 yrs old. I call children ages 4 &5 yrs old tigers their program consists on lots and lots of basics with some custom made forms. Children ages 6 & 7 are Dragons, the tigers and dragons share the same floor time and work the same material. All children in this class wear a white belt with a stripe down the center showing diffent colors of progression up to a brown stripe. By the time a child earns the brown stripe they are ready to join the Juniors class which is for ages 8 - 12. the junior curriculum has custom made forms, weapons forms, and self defense techniques that are not part of the EPAK system. If a Junior makes it to Junior Black Belt they may join the Teen Adult class. Here they start doing the EPAK curriculum. I can take a children and have them progress into adult classes without ever hindering the child and without driving the child away because they have the knowledge withthe status. Parents like the class set up that way, and the kids are always eager to come to class.

 

[Andrew Green]

The younger the child, the more attention they need is a good general rule.

3-4 year olds can be taught, but not in large groups.

One thing I believe rather strongly is that with kids (and adults) the best thing to do is basically teach them to play fight safely, but skillfully and using proper technique.

Can anyone think of a species of mammals that does not in some way playfight when young?

For me this means basically a wrestling / grappling approach at first. Using basic submission style ground work (positional, no submissions till older and more experienced)

But if you try and structure kids to much, you just end up with behavioural problems and very little accomplishment.

 

[bignick]

i agree with andrew on this one....my judo instructor, who is also highly ranked in karate, has said that judo is much easier to teach to children since they could actually have their hands on something and work with something "real". He doesn't teach either art to children anymore...but he said that when he was in california teaching he could fill out a judo class no problem. For that matter..my judo school doesn't teach any children, period...the youngest person we have training with us is a teenage girl...i think about 15. My taekwondo school does teach children...usually start 4-5..in their own special class...taekwondo has a rank system set up for this...children under the age of 15(in our schoool) are juniors and earn a junior black belt, or poom belt. I know some schools that keep kids at a poom until 18...it varies.

 

[Ceicei]

Good answers. Thank you for your thoughts and observations.

- Ceicei

 

[Pittbull]

I the Shorin Ryu school I use to attend the children held the same ranks as the adults except for black belts and if I remeber correctly the children in that school were graded as the adults were and if they reached a certain rank they where held until reaching a certain age.I know no child in that school was allowed to hold a black belt and there was no such thing as a junior bb the school required the bbs to be at least 18 and show certain maturity before being concidered for a promotion to black

 

[Ceicei]

I the Shorin Ryu school I use to attend the children held the same ranks as the adults except for black belts and if I remeber correctly the children in that school were graded as the adults were and if they reached a certain rank they where held until reaching a certain age.I know no child in that school was allowed to hold a black belt and there was no such thing as a junior bb the school required the bbs to be at least 18 and show certain maturity before being concidered for a promotion to black

So if some children qualified for BB, but not given a black belt until 18, what do they do as far as training goes in your school while waiting?

- Ceicei

 

[satans.barber]

Can anyone think of a species of mammals that does not in some way playfight when young?
.

Sloths, they can't be bothered

Ian.

 

[TigerWoman]

I think there should be a rank system for children, juniors, older teens...just not the same rank system as as adults. You could give each group a rank system and graduate them into the next group. More goals that way and it would be a status thing to get into the next group. What happens in our class is that juniors are tested along adults and are given the same requirements. I haven't seen any juniors go to that level yet but have seen a few older teens. The teens, as least some of them, have bone growth issues and trouble with flexibility when they didn't before as a child. I think they should retest or wait until 18 to test for adult status.

Also we have a question/answer period at the end of a test in which there are questions asked about integrity, respect etc. Nothing is more irritating then a junior black belt at the judging table, asking really dumb questions of the adults being tested and not just one, he won't shut up. Not my call to limit him though but I think the master should or not let him ask any questions of older students or until he is 18 too. TW

 

[kenpo tiger]

I think there should be a rank system for children, juniors, older teens...just not the same rank system as as adults. You could give each group a rank system and graduate them into the next group. More goals that way and it would be a status thing to get into the next group. What happens in our class is that juniors are tested along adults and are given the same requirements. I haven't seen any juniors go to that level yet but have seen a few older teens. The teens, as least some of them, have bone growth issues and trouble with flexibility when they didn't before as a child. I think they should retest or wait until 18 to test for adult status.

Also we have a question/answer period at the end of a test in which there are questions asked about integrity, respect etc. Nothing is more irritating then a junior black belt at the judging table, asking really dumb questions of the adults being tested and not just one, he won't shut up. Not my call to limit him though but I think the master should or not let him ask any questions of older students or until he is 18 too. TW

TW,
I have to agree with your last paragraph. In my opinion, a child has no business being a proctor for an adult's test. I understand that taekwondo is a traditional art and, pursuant to that line of thinking, a bb is a bb, but --- ! Talk about humiliation factor in testing. KT

 

[Raewyn]

We start our Little Dragons Class (ages 3-5) with their own slightly differnet belt ranking system. Classes our 30 min and we teach them very basic kicking and punching. Also forward rolls and falls. Simple self defense is taught but the emphasis is on the stranger danger program. All classes end with a game being played.

We have the same sort of system where I train. They have what you would call a pee wee's class. Instead of acheiving a belt rank, they get little emblems to sew onto their pants. When they reach the age of 8 they can then start going for belt ranks starting from white belt. They can acheive junior black belt but have to do it again if they wish to acehive adult BB. I went to a tornament and could not beleive that kids at the age of 7 could get a black belt!!!!!!!!.

 

[Tony]

Well I wished I had studied Martial Arts at a younger age. I began Judo when I was 10 but I don't really feel I learnt much as it was such a large class. However if I had studied and other Martial Art like the Kung fu I am studying now, I might be a black sash now and have a lot more confidence and would not have been bullied at school. But it was only after many years so soul searching I made myself go to a martial arts class. If I ever have children I want them to start training as early as possible but they would have to enjoy it.
Look at Jet Li, he started Wu shu when he was 8 and by 11 he was already touring many countries and winning tournaments! However he had to train 6 days a week 8 hours a day! Can you imagine children over here doing that?