Chi-sau, Lat-sau, and Hubad Lubad

geezer

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Those of you who also have some interest in Filipino Martial Arts probably have been exposed to some version of hubad-lubad, a set of sensitivity training drills which are often compared with WC's chi-sau. I actually find them more like the two-man "lat-sau" drills used in the WT lineage (especially the European versions).

In my own training (heavier on the lat-sau than the hubad) I've noticed some strong similarities, even to the point of finding a few points in which the sequences are nearly identical. On the other hand, there are also equally strong differences between these drills and their objectives which can be problematic if you are training to learn a coherent fighting system.

So my question is: Have you been exposed to both chi-sau (and possibly lat-sau) and hubad? If so, do you feel they reinforce or contradict each other? And, do you feel there is value in training both?
 

Danny T

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geezer in Pekiti-Tirsia we have "Segang Labo" which is a close-quarter engagement-disengagement drill that acts as a platform for strikes, traps and takedowns. There is an empty hand version as well as knife and sword versions. It is a timing and sensitivity development drill for counter-attacking while defending through medium to close ranges.

Every attack, whether against the opponent’s weapon hand or arm is toward the opponent’s core. For every move we should be counter-attacking.

The purpose of the drill is to learn to maintain flow and attack timing within the flow. Footwork is constant and never static causing angle changes, deflections, and offline hitting.
 

KPM

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I have never learned the Wing Tsun "Lat Sau" drills, so I really can't comment about that. But I have done a lot of Hubud...empty hand, sticks, and knives. Chi Sau and Hubud are different I think. Chi Sau really is a platform or base from which to launch techniques at each other. It is a form of controlled sparring. An exchange can start and easily stay within the "roll" without interrupting the flow of it. To me, Hubud is more of a series of connected drills and it is the transitioning from one drill to the other that has value. It is less of an "open-ended" roll that you can exchange from, and more of a technique in and of itself. The Luk Sau roll is not really a technique that has an application...its just rolling! But each of the Hubud drills are specific techniques in and of themselves. And then you vary the technique by inserting other things into it or transition to a different technique. Not quite as "open-ended" as rolling in Chi Sau.

I think a lot of Wing Chun people would consider just about any of the Hubud drills to be "chasing hands." And this is because all of the Hubud drills were originally designed to deal with weapons, where you have to have positive control of the weapon arm/hand. So they may be considered to be counter-productive or contradictory to Wing Chun training in that regard.

But...if you have a desire to learn to deal with weapon attacks, then incorporating some of the Hubud drills into Wing Chun training is a great idea and can be easily done!
 

guy b.

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I have never learned the Wing Tsun "Lat Sau" drills, so I really can't comment about that

I'm curious, why not? Does the mainland wing chun not have these?
 

KPM

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I'm curious, why not? Does the mainland wing chun not have these?

Maybe we need to define what we are all talking about when we say "Lat Sau." I just assumed Steve was referring to the specific predetermined Chi Sau sets that Leung Ting developed to progressively teach Chi Sau skills in his organization. What do you mean by "Lat Sau drills"?
 
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geezer

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OK, I did a quick scan and found a couple of versions of "lat-sau" drilling on youtube. It typically begins at punching range with either alternating pak-sau and punch or, with Emin's guys, alternating punching and then incorporated switches, steps kicks, and allows for various attacks (including non-WC attacks like arm-bars) much as Hubad drills do. However, unlike hubad, energy should always be directed at your partner's center. So if your partner misses a defense or deliberately drops his hand away, you will always follow through and hit him (lightly --it is a drill after all).



Now here is a hubad clip. Again, it takes place at long-bridge range, and follows an alternating pattern. However, unlike lat-sau drills, you attack the arms first, then the body. To WC guys used to attacking center it seems more indirect, inefficient and involves, as KPM said, "chasing-hands".



Personally I agree with KPM that hubad lubad makes more sense when you consider that FMA is heavily weapons based. Without weapons, I'd rather attack the center than the limbs. With weapons, target options are wider. "Nearest weapon to nearest target" is a commonly heard phrase.
 
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geezer

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None of these drills are familiar to me

No reason why they should be familiar to you Guy, since you come from the WSL VT branch. And if you aren't involved in FMA you wouldn't have anything to do with hubad lubad. And even if you did FMA, not all groups train this drill.

As far as the "lat-sau" drills go, even the "WT" schools in Hong Kong don't make a big deal out of them.The lat-sau drills were expanded into a major part of the "WT" curriculum by Keith Kernspecht's EWTO. When Emin Boztepe came from Germany to the US and for a while managed Leung Ting's US organization, similar lat-sau sets were taught here. When Emin left to start his own "EBMAS" group the remaining LT WT in the USA people de-emphasized the program, except for those who had also trained WT in Europe such as Jeff Webb, Alex Richter, Alex Wallenwein or who had trained WTunder Emin in the States in the 90s.

Emin slightly altered the core pak-da striking pattern by keeping the hands closed into fists, essentially making the core pattern an inside and outside gate "punch to punch" drill to which changes, varying attacks, steps, kicks and so on could be added. I actually like this variation quite a bit, since it places greater stress on attacking center, using the punch to clear the way (da sau jik si siu sau).

Here are some guys apparently associated with Emin's Ebmas organization training this way:

 

KPM

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Thanks for the videos Steve! I had the wrong impression of WT's Lat Sau. I thought it was pre-arranged attacks and defenses in Chi Sau. The videos make it look more like variations of the Pak Da drill. In Pin Sun we do something similar. Most of our short sets are also worked into the Pak Da drill to practice the core idea or technique "on the fly."

So, now I see why you included Lat Sau in your original post. The Lat Sau drills do resemble angle #5 Hubud a bit. But, as we've both said...the WT drills aim at center, while the hubud drill focuses on controlling the arm
 
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