What is weng chun?

[guy b.]

Someone mentioned weng chun on a thread here, but I can't find it now. What is it and is it related to wing chun in any way? I tried looking for clips but not sure if they are representative.

 

[ThatVTGuy]

Here is part one of a video I found:

EDIT: Other parts

 

[Marnetmar]

In a nutshell, the Tang, Lo, and Tung families learned Wing Chun from Fung Siu Ching and combined their Wing Chun with the martial arts they already practiced. The Lo family combined it with Hung Gar, and the Tang and Tung families combined it with some other stuff.

Eventually the three families opened a training hall at Dai Duk Lan in Hong Kong and combined their methods into one system which they call Weng Chun because they chose the characters 永春 (Eternal Spring) instead of 詠春 (Praising Spring). This is because they trace the origins of Wing Chun to Chi Sim rather than Ng Mui and believe that Chi Sim sought refuge and taught his martial arts at the Weng Chun Dim in the Southern Shaolin Temple.

The Chan family did the same thing with the name (which is why Pan Nam people use 永春) but they did it because they traced it back to Yong(Weng) Chun White Crane.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Kind of, sort of? Weng Chun says that someone that has become known as "Chi Sim" was hiding out from the Imperial authorities. He took refuge on the Red Boats and taught his martial art to several of the performers. One was Sun Kam. Sun Kam then taught Fung Siu Ching. Chi Sim moved on from the Red Boats and was in Dung Guan for awhile and taught a few more people. He was eventually at the Fei Lo Temple near the Tang village. While there he taught several members of the Tang family. Tang Suen learned from them. He later left Tang village and went to Foshan and also learned from Fung Siu Ching. He then taught his son Tang Yik. The Tang family is said to have the "purest" form of Weng Chun and not to have added in from other styles. Chu Chong Man learned from Tung Dik who learned from Fung Siu Ching. It is likely that Chu Chong Man was the one that added in a lot from his prior Hung Kuen training, not Tung Dik. Lo also learned from Fung Siu Ching and combined the Weng Chun Kuen form with things from his prior training to create the Saam Bai Fut form.

Tang Yik, Chu Chong Man, and Lo were the primary guys at Dai Duk Lan. This was never a big training academy. This was simply a place where these guys met to do some training together. Wai Yan was Lo's student. He brought them together and learned some from each. Cheng Kwan was Wai Yan's student. Andreas Hoffman was Cheng Kwan's student. Hoffman's "Chi Sim Weng Chun" is a modern creation. It takes elements from each of the 3 primary Weng Chun people that trained together at Dai Duk Lan, as Sifu Tang said in the video. Hoffman then "exaggerated" many of the movements to make them look more like Shaolin Kung Fu and less like Ip Man Wing Chun. He also includes elements from Ip Man Wing Chun via Cheng Kwan and uses Pan Nam's knife form.

There are no double knives in Weng Chun, unless they were added later from another source. As Sifu Tang said, the basis of Weng Chun was the Weng Chun Kuen form, the dummy form, and the pole form. The Weng Chun Kuen form is similar to Wing Chun's Siu Lim Tao in that is done in sections, each section separated by drawing the fists back to the side of the ribs. There are eleven sections and no footwork other than pivoting. There is a 2 man training exercise to go with each section....which makes is somewhat like Pin Sun Wing Chun. Since this version of the system started on the Red Boats, it is arranged to be very compact and performed in relatively little space. But Chi Sim likely changed things a bit when he left the Red Boats, and Fung Siu Ching changed things a bit when he left the Red Boats and taught in Foshan. Fung Siu Ching developed the Jong Kuen form, which was designed to take techniques and concepts from the dummy form and add a lot of footwork and mobility to them since now the system was "land-based" and had plenty of room to move. Likewise, the Tang family says that the pole form that Chi Sim taught to them while he was at Fei Lo temple was a much more footwork heavy and diverse version than what he taught on the Red Boats. The Tang family also teaches a from called Seung Kung, which is said to be the Weng Chun Kuen form concepts but with lots of footwork added since now the practice was land-based and not "boat-based." It is unclear whether this form was developed by the Tang family, or by Chi Sim after he left the Red Boats. But it seems the Fung Siu Ching did not teach this form.

Some Wing Chun lineages include Chi Sim and Sun Kam. Its hard to know who taught who back then. But in my opinion, Wing Chun and Weng Chun very likely both started from the same "root art" and then went their separate ways, diverging over time. Perhaps Wing Chun's myth about a snake and crane is an indicator that snake elements were added in and this may be where some of the differences between Wing Chun and Weng Chun started. Weng Chun does not have that snake and crane creation myth. The original name for both Wing Chun and Weng Chun was very likely "Weng Chun", but that is another thing this is hard to determine for sure.

So Wing Chun and Weng Chun are "cousins." They are similar enough to clearly be pretty closely related, but different enough to clearly be separate systems.

 

[guy b.]

^^^^^ Kind of, sort of? Weng Chun says that someone that has become known as "Chi Sim" was hiding out from the Imperial authorities. He took refuge on the Red Boats and taught his martial art to several of the performers. One was Sun Kam. Sun Kam then taught Fung Siu Ching. Chi Sim moved on from the Red Boats and was in Dung Guan for awhile and taught a few more people. He was eventually at the Fei Lo Temple near the Tang village. While there he taught several members of the Tang family. Tang Suen learned from them. He later left Tang village and went to Foshan and also learned from Fung Siu Ching. He then taught his son Tang Yik. The Tang family is said to have the "purest" form of Weng Chun and not to have added in from other styles. Chu Chong Man learned from Tung Dik who learned from Fung Siu Ching. It is likely that Chu Chong Man was the one that added in a lot from his prior Hung Kuen training, not Tung Dik. Lo also learned from Fung Siu Ching and combined the Weng Chun Kuen form with things from his prior training to create the Saam Bai Fut form.

Tang Yik, Chu Chong Man, and Lo were the primary guys at Dai Duk Lan. This was never a big training academy. This was simply a place where these guys met to do some training together. Wai Yan was Lo's student. He brought them together and learned some from each. Cheng Kwan was Wai Yan's student. Andreas Hoffman was Cheng Kwan's student. Hoffman's "Chi Sim Weng Chun" is a modern creation. It takes elements from each of the 3 primary Weng Chun people that trained together at Dai Duk Lan, as Sifu Tang said in the video. Hoffman then "exaggerated" many of the movements to make them look more like Shaolin Kung Fu and less like Ip Man Wing Chun. He also includes elements from Ip Man Wing Chun via Cheng Kwan and uses Pan Nam's knife form.

There are no double knives in Weng Chun, unless they were added later from another source. As Sifu Tang said, the basis of Weng Chun was the Weng Chun Kuen form, the dummy form, and the pole form. The Weng Chun Kuen form is similar to Wing Chun's Siu Lim Tao in that is done in sections, each section separated by drawing the fists back to the side of the ribs. There are eleven sections and no footwork other than pivoting. There is a 2 man training exercise to go with each section....which makes is somewhat like Pin Sun Wing Chun. Since this version of the system started on the Red Boats, it is arranged to be very compact and performed in relatively little space. But Chi Sim likely changed things a bit when he left the Red Boats, and Fung Siu Ching changed things a bit when he left the Red Boats and taught in Foshan. Fung Siu Ching developed the Jong Kuen form, which was designed to take techniques and concepts from the dummy form and add a lot of footwork and mobility to them since now the system was "land-based" and had plenty of room to move. Likewise, the Tang family says that the pole form that Chi Sim taught to them while he was at Fei Lo temple was a much more footwork heavy and diverse version than what he taught on the Red Boats. The Tang family also teaches a from called Seung Kung, which is said to be the Weng Chun Kuen form concepts but with lots of footwork added since now the practice was land-based and not "boat-based." It is unclear whether this form was developed by the Tang family, or by Chi Sim after he left the Red Boats. But it seems the Fung Siu Ching did not teach this form.

Some Wing Chun lineages include Chi Sim and Sun Kam. Its hard to know who taught who back then. But in my opinion, Wing Chun and Weng Chun very likely both started from the same "root art" and then went their separate ways, diverging over time. Perhaps Wing Chun's myth about a snake and crane is an indicator that snake elements were added in and this may be where some of the differences between Wing Chun and Weng Chun started. Weng Chun does not have that snake and crane creation myth. The original name for both Wing Chun and Weng Chun was very likely "Weng Chun", but that is another thing this is hard to determine for sure.

So Wing Chun and Weng Chun are "cousins." They are similar enough to clearly be pretty closely related, but different enough to clearly be separate systems.

Thanks, good info

And thanks to others for the video clips and info

 

[martin watts]

weng chun aka yong chun in mandarin is also a place name in China. In the county of yong chun they practice white crane kung fu

 

[guy b.]

Hi Martin, are you the same Martin Watts who does the white crane clips? If so then I like, good clips, and hope to hear what you have to say about white crane

 

[dudewingchun]

^^^^^ Kind of, sort of? Weng Chun says that someone that has become known as "Chi Sim" was hiding out from the Imperial authorities. He took refuge on the Red Boats and taught his martial art to several of the performers. One was Sun Kam. Sun Kam then taught Fung Siu Ching. Chi Sim moved on from the Red Boats and was in Dung Guan for awhile and taught a few more people. He was eventually at the Fei Lo Temple near the Tang village. While there he taught several members of the Tang family. Tang Suen learned from them. He later left Tang village and went to Foshan and also learned from Fung Siu Ching. He then taught his son Tang Yik. The Tang family is said to have the "purest" form of Weng Chun and not to have added in from other styles. Chu Chong Man learned from Tung Dik who learned from Fung Siu Ching. It is likely that Chu Chong Man was the one that added in a lot from his prior Hung Kuen training, not Tung Dik. Lo also learned from Fung Siu Ching and combined the Weng Chun Kuen form with things from his prior training to create the Saam Bai Fut form.

Tang Yik, Chu Chong Man, and Lo were the primary guys at Dai Duk Lan. This was never a big training academy. This was simply a place where these guys met to do some training together. Wai Yan was Lo's student. He brought them together and learned some from each. Cheng Kwan was Wai Yan's student. Andreas Hoffman was Cheng Kwan's student. Hoffman's "Chi Sim Weng Chun" is a modern creation. It takes elements from each of the 3 primary Weng Chun people that trained together at Dai Duk Lan, as Sifu Tang said in the video. Hoffman then "exaggerated" many of the movements to make them look more like Shaolin Kung Fu and less like Ip Man Wing Chun. He also includes elements from Ip Man Wing Chun via Cheng Kwan and uses Pan Nam's knife form.

There are no double knives in Weng Chun, unless they were added later from another source. As Sifu Tang said, the basis of Weng Chun was the Weng Chun Kuen form, the dummy form, and the pole form. The Weng Chun Kuen form is similar to Wing Chun's Siu Lim Tao in that is done in sections, each section separated by drawing the fists back to the side of the ribs. There are eleven sections and no footwork other than pivoting. There is a 2 man training exercise to go with each section....which makes is somewhat like Pin Sun Wing Chun. Since this version of the system started on the Red Boats, it is arranged to be very compact and performed in relatively little space. But Chi Sim likely changed things a bit when he left the Red Boats, and Fung Siu Ching changed things a bit when he left the Red Boats and taught in Foshan. Fung Siu Ching developed the Jong Kuen form, which was designed to take techniques and concepts from the dummy form and add a lot of footwork and mobility to them since now the system was "land-based" and had plenty of room to move. Likewise, the Tang family says that the pole form that Chi Sim taught to them while he was at Fei Lo temple was a much more footwork heavy and diverse version than what he taught on the Red Boats. The Tang family also teaches a from called Seung Kung, which is said to be the Weng Chun Kuen form concepts but with lots of footwork added since now the practice was land-based and not "boat-based." It is unclear whether this form was developed by the Tang family, or by Chi Sim after he left the Red Boats. But it seems the Fung Siu Ching did not teach this form.

Some Wing Chun lineages include Chi Sim and Sun Kam. Its hard to know who taught who back then. But in my opinion, Wing Chun and Weng Chun very likely both started from the same "root art" and then went their separate ways, diverging over time. Perhaps Wing Chun's myth about a snake and crane is an indicator that snake elements were added in and this may be where some of the differences between Wing Chun and Weng Chun started. Weng Chun does not have that snake and crane creation myth. The original name for both Wing Chun and Weng Chun was very likely "Weng Chun", but that is another thing this is hard to determine for sure.

So Wing Chun and Weng Chun are "cousins." They are similar enough to clearly be pretty closely related, but different enough to clearly be separate systems.

So whats the deal with Fung Siu Ching ? Hes shows up in both Wing chun and Weng chun as a notable anscestor. He apparently taught Yuen Kay San when he was old.
I

 

[KPM]

So whats the deal with Fung Siu Ching ? Hes shows up in both Wing chun and Weng chun as a notable anscestor. He apparently taught Yuen Kay San when he was old.
I

Fung Siu Ching really has nothing to do with the Wing Chun lineages. It is said that in his retirement years Fung Siu Ching went to live on the Yuen estate for his final 3 years of life. During this time he is supposed to have taught the Yuen brothers and helped them "polish" their Wing Chun by teaching them more Chin Na techniques and "close body skills" as well as refining their pole method. Now that I am learning Weng Chun in the Fung Siu Ching lineage, I am somewhat skeptical of this story. I think FSC taught the Yuen brothers very little, if anything. They do not have the same pole form, and from what I have seen their pole form is much like other Wing Chun pole....which is not the same as Weng Chun pole. From what I have seen of Yuen Kay Shan/Sum Nun lineage people, there isn't anything any more similar to Weng Chun than you find in Ip Man WCK. There isn't a substantial amount of Chin Na or "close body skills" that I have seen. I remember someone quoting Sum Nun having him saying that he once asked YKS about the difference between Wing Chun and Weng Chun. YKS told him...."they are the same." I know this to be untrue. Wing Chun and Weng Chun are not the same. So again, I question the idea that FSC taught much of anything to the Yuen brothers. Just my opinion.

 

[Marnetmar]

Fung Siu Ching really has nothing to do with the Wing Chun lineages. It is said that in his retirement years Fung Siu Ching went to live on the Yuen estate for his final 3 years of life. During this time he is supposed to have taught the Yuen brothers and helped them "polish" their Wing Chun by teaching them more Chin Na techniques and "close body skills" as well as refining their pole method. Now that I am learning Weng Chun in the Fung Siu Ching lineage, I am somewhat skeptical of this story. I think FSC taught the Yuen brothers very little, if anything. They do not have the same pole form, and from what I have seen their pole form is much like other Wing Chun pole....which is not the same as Weng Chun pole. From what I have seen of Yuen Kay Shan/Sum Nun lineage people, there isn't anything any more similar to Weng Chun than you find in Ip Man WCK. There isn't a substantial amount of Chin Na or "close body skills" that I have seen. I remember someone quoting Sum Nun having him saying that he once asked YKS about the difference between Wing Chun and Weng Chun. YKS told him...."they are the same." I know this to be untrue. Wing Chun and Weng Chun are not the same. So again, I question the idea that FSC taught much of anything to the Yuen brothers. Just my opinion.

Have you ever considered making a video highlighting some differences in Wing Chun and Weng Chun in terms of fundamental principles and how they are applied? I don't think anyone's ever done something like that.

 

[dudewingchun]

Have you ever considered making a video highlighting some differences in Wing Chun and Weng Chun in terms of fundamental principles and how they are applied? I don't think anyone's ever done something like that.

You seen these 3 part videos showing the differences? a bit basic though.

 

[Marnetmar]

Yeah, that's why I said fundamental principles and how they are applied.

 

[KPM]

I will take a crack at it in the near future. Just give me a little time.