Chi Sao with Sifu

Nobody Important

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Woon or wun-sau refers to the circling changes in chi-sau, like huen-sau. We also use the term for a circling-hand chi-sau platform similar to what you presented except with smaller movements, keeping the hands closer in towards center --never moving laterally. The way we train it, the circling movement isn't initiated by the practitioner, it is used in response to circle around pressure from your partner and recover your attacking line while maintaining forward intent. Chasing hands laterally would be considered a serious error in the drill we do.
We have a similar drill in YCW WC. We call it Double Circling Hands. It has aspects of pummeling, it's a key component of Kum Na.
 

Juany118

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We have a similar drill in YCW WC. We call it Double Circling Hands. It has aspects of pummeling, it's a key component of Kum Na.

What I think is interesting is this. 4 different Lineages have both now said they do the same thing, the difference is origin/perspective. Some have it 100% built it. I will find out, for the purpose of this conversation if mine is blurred. I will explain.

My Sifu is the student of, Keith Mazza, the US Rep of William Cheung. Sifu Keith also teaches Tai Chi Chuan. So on Monday I am going to ask my Sifu if the push hands we do is built into TWC or something he and Sifu Keith got permission to integrate from GM Cheung. Both are VERY big on having GM Cheung approve of stuff. Hell my school teaching WC and Kali in parallel (vs seperate classes) wouldn't exist without his permission.
 

LFJ

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:21
your sifu's right hand grabs your left wrist.
I watch it over again ..My sifu never grabs my wrist..but even if he did,so what? thats called Lop sao?

More like :23~:24. His right hand is clearly fully clasped around your left wrist.

I would not call this laap-sau, because it doesn't pull. It in fact doesn't appear to serve any purpose other than perhaps to hold on to your wrist so your arm doesn't go anywhere for a moment.

I would just call that holding.
 
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futsaowingchun

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His hand is open its not a hold. like in a fok sao.he is using what we call a hook to control my movement
 

LFJ

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His hand is open its not a hold. like in a fok sao.he is using what we call a hook to control my movement

His thumb is wrapped around your wrist, man... He's holding on.

grab_zpsvpvsljxz.png
 
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futsaowingchun

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His thumb is wrapped around your wrist, man... He's holding on.

grab_zpsvpvsljxz.png
Just because his thumb is wrap around my wrist does not make it a grab. he is using as a hook not a hold or grab. we do it many ways. his hand is actually open but in a loose curve. If he where to grab me there I could break his wrist easly and he knows it.
 

geezer

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-Grabbing defeats the purpose of good lop sao motion.

We also do not grab in our "lap-sau" drill, but in some other situations very definitely employ a lap/grab. Isn't this also true in AF WC?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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2 questions here?

- Even if you may not like to grab but since you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing you, do you still need to train how to grab and how to break a grip?

- Do you ever try to pull your opponent into your punch?
 

geezer

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2 questions here?

- Even if you may not like to grab but since you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing you, do you still need to train how to grab and how to break a grip?

- Do you ever try to pull your opponent into your punch?

In the VT I train, we do not pull inwards, towards our bodies, but we do often grab an arm and jolt it downward (jut-sau) disrupting his balance, or use body rotation to yank the opponent sideways off balance, or a sort of push-pull movement to exploit the opponent's reaction -- the kind of stuff commonly found in grappling arts. Such actions are typically used to disrupt our opponent's balance in order to facilitate striking as WC/VT is a striking art, though we do have a few good throws or sweeps too. Even in a striking art, I find there something immensely satisfying about slamming an opponent to the ground.

Hmmm... maybe I really am a grappler at heart. Ah "...the road not taken" and all that. :)
 
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