Chi Sao with Sifu

futsaowingchun

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Here is a rare video of me and my Sifu doing some light Chi Sao when I came to visit him about 5 years ago.. Notice we are not using the Ip Man Luk sao or poon sao rolling platform . this is a free flowing based more on pressure or pressing..This is one of the platforms we train in besides the Luk Sao..

 

geezer

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Although we typically train in the characteristic YM rolling "tan-bong" poon-sau, sometimes we use a similar "platform" called woon sau in our branch. Ultimately one can flow into the other. I like the variety!
 

Juany118

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Just wonder why

- wrist grabbing, and
- avoid arms contact,

are not part of the training?
If it's like my school, it is about flow. To really fight, and win, you have to be able to flow, especially when your opponent is stronger. They expand, you contract. They contract, you expand. If you can do that then it isn't a matter of creating openings to attack through, you see your opponent creates them and then you simply exploit them. Every so often my Sifu will have what he calls "soft days" where he has us focus on stuff like this. It can feel like he has us doing a Wing Chun variation of Tai Chi Chuan push hands but it works. I don't have videos of us doing it but picture using a Wing Chun body structure vs the Tai Chi Chuan structure in the following video. Due to the narrower stance of WC, to make it work with WC you have to incorporate footwork into the flow but the feel is the same... Flow, be relaxed, never meet force with force.


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Kung Fu Wang

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it is about flow.
The normal situation is both you and your opponent are willing to build that bridge. The extreme situations are:

- You want to establish that bridge but your opponent doesn't want to.
- Your opponent wants to establish that bridge but you don't want to.

IMO, you should train both "normal situation" along with "extreme situations".
 

LFJ

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IMO, you should train both "normal situation" along with "extreme situations".

The "extreme situations" are likely the only one's that are going to happen in a fight. And neither will successfully establish such contact if the other doesn't want to.

Lots of staring at the hands and following them around in that video. No focus on hitting at all. It's not YMVT, so I don't know what they are actually doing it for, though.
 

Juany118

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The normal situation is both you and your opponent are willing to build that bridge. The extreme situations are:

- You want to establish that bridge but your opponent doesn't want to.
- Your opponent wants to establish that bridge but you don't want to.

IMO, you should train both "normal situation" along with "extreme situations".

You are correct. The point of the drill is to train the idea that when you meet opposition you need to flow with it. You can't simply walk through a wall. There are times where your skill and/or strength let you pierce it. There are also times however were you have to go around the wall. In a real fight you don't have time to think about it there is only time to react. Drills like the Op noted and chi sau simply allow you to cultivate the sensitivity and ability to flow so you can transition to whichever one is appropriate at the time.

The video I linked is an example of "picture perfect" push hands by the way. Both evenly matched so neither gains an advantage. In real push hands it get a bit more "active.". The point is to realize that one needs to be relaxed and flow in order to properly attack or defend.

Long story short the drills, at least in my school, are to help teach the "yin". To much yang (aggressive, striking) without adequate yin (passive flow) will get you hurt or killed.


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wckf92

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Although we typically train in the characteristic YM rolling "tan-bong" poon-sau, sometimes we use a similar "platform" called woon sau in our branch. Ultimately one can flow into the other. I like the variety!

Woon?
 

wckf92

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Lots of staring at the hands and following them around in that video.

Yeah I caught that as well. Definitely a departure from the 'norm'.
Wonder what purpose it serves...
 

Juany118

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There is no wrist grabbing in the video . we are doing chi sao which is about bridge contact .

The problem is some people think such drills must by definition lead eventually to an attempt to grab and/or strike.
 

Nobody Important

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raccoon-grass.jpg

Coon

Red-Panda-Outside.jpg

Woon

:) :) :) :) :)
 

Kung Fu Wang

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There is no wrist grabbing in the video. we are doing chi sao which is about bridge contact .
Here are 2 examples.

Example 1:

- You use left arm downward parry (clockwise from your side) intend to establish a bridge.
- Before your left arm can make a contact on your opponent's right arm, his right arm rotate the same direction (clockwise from your side) and hook punch to the left side of your head.

Example 2:

- Your opponent uses right hand to grab on your left wrist.
- You rotate your left arm against his thumb to break apart his wrist grabbing.

Since example 1 may happen more often than a successful bridge building. Also even if you don't like to grab, you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing you as in example 2.

My question is if you don't train both situations in Chi Shou, when will you train that? Most Taiji guys have ignored these 2 situations and I don't understand the reason behind it.
 

Juany118

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Here are 2 examples.

Example 1:

- You use left arm downward parry (clockwise from your side) intend to establish a bridge.
- Before your left arm can make a contact on your opponent's right arm, his right arm rotate the same direction (clockwise from your side) and hook punch to the left side of your head.

Example 2:

- Your opponent uses right hand to grab on your left wrist.
- You rotate your left arm against his thumb to break apart his wrist grabbing.

Since example 1 may happen more often than a successful bridge building. Also even if you don't like to grab, you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing you as in example 2.

My question is if you don't train both situations in Chi Shou, when will you train that? Most Taiji guys have ignored these 2 situations and I don't understand the reason behind it.

Well there are a few things.

Regarding chi sau the main point is to teach you sensitivity. Sense the structure and positioning of the opponent so that you know where to strike. That said grabs are not "off limits" but due to this we use more extension on the wrist, especially in the bong sau to minimize the risk of a wrist lock/grab.

In terms of the push hands like drill that is all about training the body. One of the hardest things, in my experience, for many people coming into WC is the idea of combing a striking art with a relaxed and flowing body. With most students I see even in SLT they need to be reminded to relax the shoulders. When they do a bil sau to defend, reminded it can be soft. Telling then to think of it like spreading butter when you put it out there rather than "slamming" it out there like a Karate block. So the push hands help to train that relaxation and flow when two people are in contact vs going rigid.
 

geezer

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I never heard of woon sao...what does that translate to?

Woon or wun-sau refers to the circling changes in chi-sau, like huen-sau. We also use the term for a circling-hand chi-sau platform similar to what you presented except with smaller movements, keeping the hands closer in towards center --never moving laterally. The way we train it, the circling movement isn't initiated by the practitioner, it is used in response to circle around pressure from your partner and recover your attacking line while maintaining forward intent. Chasing hands laterally would be considered a serious error in the drill we do.
 

Juany118

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WC guys like to grab too.

wc_1.jpg


WC_grab_kick.jpg

wc_2.jpg


wc_3.jpg
Absolutely we do but at the same time that isn't necessarily what Chi-Sau is about. Chi-Sau has a lot to do with feeling the position and structure of the opponent and then exploit the weaknesses felt. Might it involve a lap/grab? Yeah but focusing on grabs misses the point of the drill.

Note: in real fights I am huge on grabs to knee strike etc.

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