Chen Style Basics Series -- Zuǒyòu chājiǎo (left and right rub with heel)

[Appledog46]

The practice shown won’t really develop a proper Taiji kick — or even a solid kick in general.
...
The foundation isn’t there yet.

The practice shown is just regular Chen style. If you mean they are beginners ("the foundation isn't there yet,) and therefore the exercise doesn't work to develop Tai Chi kicks, that is a hasty generalization with notes of straw man. You should know better -- this is just a section of the yi lu.

Larts said, "It comes down to the intellectual honesty of having a complete understanding or knowledge of what is being developed in the practice...without deviation from, or substitution for, the method itself." That part, we can all agree on. It's the next part which usually gets people into trouble: "The only way out of that conundrum is to discard the notion that the practice is associated with a particular boxing method based on specific principles of movement and energy-management." That's the part that doesn't make sense. You are either following the method, or you are not.

What happens is that people get to a point where they realize they are not learning what they want to learn, and instead of sacrificing their ego and just following their teacher and learning what the teacher wants them to learn, they think they can go off and do whatever they want. They get benefit from this, at least, it seems so, but the reality is that if they had stayed with their own teacher and made a true breakthrough they would have learned far more than switching to a different system. Then again, for some people, switching is the right move. It can be a complex situation, life!

 

[windwalker099107]

I created this line practice because I like this move, and wanted to practice it many times each day.
This kind of practice can help you improve your Tai Chi Kicks!

If it’s presented as “helping improve Tai Chi kicks,” then foundation is relevant — that’s what makes it Taiji practice instead of just leg-swinging.

The practice shown is just regular Chen style. If you mean the foundation isn't there yet, that's not relevant for a documentary video.

If it’s just for a documentary clip, then it shouldn’t be held up as an example of training method.
Either way, without proper alignment the movement doesn’t meet the stated goal.

 

[Appledog46]

If it’s presented as “helping improve Tai Chi kicks,” then foundation is relevant — that’s what makes it Taiji practice instead of just leg-swinging.

If it’s just for a documentary clip, then it shouldn’t be held up as an example of training method.
Either way, without proper alignment the movement doesn’t meet the stated goal.

Thanks for your opinion, but this is getting repetitive and boring. If you want to help people improve their Tai Chi kicks, stop trolling my threads by repeating your opinion again and again, and just go make your own video and post it here. Who knows, I might learn something, and if I do, I will click like.

The road is exciting and new and cannot be exhausted, If you are not going to travel it together with me, I won't wait for you, but I will always remember my old friend.

 

[Kung Fu Wang108]

instead of just leg-swinging.

Agree! There is a difference between a "kick" and a "leg-swinging".

 

[Same Trick53]

It works for me. The exercise is essentially an extension of rub with heel, noting that the entry into the move (high pat on horse) is functionally similar to the exit move from kick with heel (wade forward). So I didn't really invent anything, I just looped that section of the form.

After practicing it like this for just a week I already found that my kicks had a lot more pop. After 28 days my wife didn't believe my results. I started to really enjoy standing up on the leg, I found it a great strength building exercise. I also have problems with cross-step since I severely damaged my ankles about 10 years ago and this allows me to gently and repeatedly work on them. I like it. I'm working on formalizing a series of moves like this, so that it is possible to teach the form in a broken down way via single movement practice. I like single movement practice. I am in fact a very simple minded person who enjoys repetitive labor.

That’s good, I myself don’t single out specific parts of the TJQ form, and if I did I would most probably not single out the kicks for special attention.
I do have some experience in the high rise wushu kicking associated with long fist or at least modern changquan but find that of no specific value to the way I walk with the CMA I practice, already before I took up CMA I was a pretty good kicker as for sparring and tournament fighting..
The legwork(leg awareness) of TJQ I find of real value is what “KungFu Wang” often refers to here on the forum, the kind that aligns with shuaijiao legwork.

 

[Same Trick53]

I

That's the reasoning of a man who has his priorities straight in terms of practicality vs preference. The term, 'martial art' is often applied to the practice of taiji where there is no consideration given to the boxing method beyond a solo exercise that develops a particular movement skill that has yet to address the attribute(s) that that skill is purported to impart. A personal peeve, but not a big deal.

The opening post stated that the exercise shown "...can help you improve your Tai Chi Kicks!".

A bunch of posts later, Kung Fu Wang asks: "How does a Taiji guy develop/test his Taiji kicking?", to which an explanation is offered regarding the what, and the wherefore, instead of the how. It was a simple question that cuts to the chase. When and how does one begin unwrapping the boxing method from the solo practice in order to substantiate the claim that that solo practice actually does improve this or that attribute - in this case, Tai Chi Kicks? If there isn't a congruent progression of what is claimed to be developed in the solo practice to testing it as-is, the gap in that progression has to filled with something, or the practice is nothing more than choreography. If one is to refer to what they're practicing as a 'martial art' they should be able to answer that most basic question in plain, simple terms.

It comes down to the intellectual honesty of having a complete understanding or knowledge of what is being developed in the practice in guiding the progression of practice to some sort of martial truth without deviation from, or substitution for, the method itself. The only way out of that conundrum is to discard the notion that the practice is associated with a particular boxing method based on specific principles of movement and energy-management.

How does a Taiji guy develop/test his Taiji kicks?

Going abstract - I can and do very well understand that the kicks within the traditional TJQ form works as sort of energy balancer within the form, that as a whole(the taiji form)works to keep and maintain practitioners mind/body balance which by itself is a good mood in any sort of encounters .
Singling out for example the kicks of the TJQ form to focus on may be good only for one kind of encounter but fail in overall development.

 

[Marsha Larts]

If it’s presented as “helping improve Tai Chi kicks,” then foundation is relevant — that’s what makes it Taiji practice instead of just leg-swinging.



If it’s just for a documentary clip, then it shouldn’t be held up as an example of training method.
Either way, without proper alignment the movement doesn’t meet the stated goal.

Lucky you, not having what you posted chopped up into a misquote so as to misrepresent the line of reasoning that carried from one paragraph to another until it no longer makes sense to the person trying to argue the main point when they realize they have no argument.

Yeah, the foundation is critical. IME, it starts from Central Equilibrium and moving from the center without 'hinging'. But I should probably let those with legit lineage and superior Wu De answer the burning question that has been riding this thread all day...

At least you got excused as a troll so I'm not sure which one of us is better off in then end.

As a general commentary;

Still no answer to the question (how does a taiji guy develop and test their taiji kicks?), as a natural progression toward "some sort of martial truth" which follows the notion that the exercise will help 'improve Tai Chi kicks'. Either the exercise in the op is nothing more than choreography, or there's a congruent progression toward it being tested as-is in potentially lending some credence to the claim that it will improve your Tai Chi kicks. That's the intellectual honesty I referred to insomuch as there is an understanding of how to move, in this case, a kicking skill, from what's shown in the op to completion as a tried/tested and trued/proofed attribute of the boxing method. Without the understanding required to follow through with that progression, one will encounter the conundrum I mentioned earlier.

 

[Appledog46]

Lucky you, not having what you posted chopped up into a misquote so as to misrepresent the line of reasoning that carried from one paragraph to another until it no longer makes sense to the person trying to argue the main point when they realize they have no argument.

Yeah, the foundation is critical. IME, it starts from Central Equilibrium and moving from the center without 'hinging'. But I should probably let those with legit lineage and superior Wu De answer the burning question that has been riding this thread all day...

At least you got excused as a troll so I'm not sure which one of us is better off in then end.

As a general commentary;

Still no answer to the question (how does a taiji guy develop and test their taiji kicks?), as a natural progression toward "some sort of martial truth" which follows the notion that the exercise will help 'improve Tai Chi kicks'. Either the exercise in the op is nothing more than choreography, or there's a congruent progression toward it being tested as-is in potentially lending some credence to the claim that it will improve your Tai Chi kicks. That's the intellectual honesty I referred to insomuch as there is an understanding of how to move, in this case, a kicking skill, from what's shown in the op to completion as a tried/tested and trued/proofed attribute of the boxing method. Without the understanding required to follow through with that progression, one will encounter the conundrum I mentioned earlier.

 

[Xue Sheng101]

;

Still no answer to the question (how does a taiji guy develop and test their taiji kicks?),

Oh for crying out loud… train rooting, do kicking an balance training and kick stuff

 

[Marsha Larts]

Oh for crying out loud… train rooting, do kicking an balance training and kick stuff

Sure

Seems simple enough to develop if that's all there is to it. Is testing equally simple?

Are Wu style kicks practiced with the same body method as Yang and/or Chen? Do the three styles mentioned all develop the same frame or are there stylistic nuances that take the development in different directions resulting in different movement patterns applied to kicking-proper?