Chen Style Basics Series -- Zuǒyòu chājiǎo (left and right rub with heel)

[Appledog46]

As for the op, whether it's for attention, validation, or whatever other reason one might have to post videos such as that (and others), there's just something really "off" with a person who hides behind a couple of kids - possibly as a way of avoiding scrutiny and criticism - to show half-baked presentations of whatever material is supposed to be demonstrated. It comes off as exploitive and cowardly. Not something a normal adult does on a public martial arts forum.

Frankly, after seeing the previous commentary in the thread over this, I don't believe that is your opinion of the video, I just think you're trying to be insulting and rude to me because I called you out for spreading misinformation.

This is why Wu De is so important. No one will train someone who has bad Wu De. Their attitude prevents it, why waste your time? Just now, I offered to answer any questions someone might have about Tai Chi legwork, and instead you attempted to sabotage my credibility so that you didn't have to admit you were wrong.

 

[Appledog46]

I also believe the "leg skill" should be above all MA systems. There should be just "leg skill". There is no such thing as WC leg skill or Taiji leg skill.

The problem here is that if you try to use SC leg skills in Tai Chi you have to violate the Tai Chi principles:

Good SC, bad TC!

The key is in something Windwalker said.

"In Taiji, what is referred to as 'kicking' is not isolated or different from any other type of movement practiced. All movements follow the same theory, based on the specific lineage of Taiji being practiced."

As such, it's part of a process, not developed or tested independently as an isolated movement.

So, if you want to add outside techniques to Tai Chi, you can do that! In fact, there is a version of Tantui which is trained in Chen Village even today. If you look at the history of Taijiquan it essentially is a collection of many popular arts of the time. My sifus broke this down for me since they also studied the underlying arts and showed me where they came from in Tai Chi. This is quite common. Feng Zhiquang added moves from Tongbei and Xinyi Liuhe to Hunyuan Tai Chi, moves that fit but perhaps weren't included, or were lost over time. Also look at Yang style. Several moves in Yang style that are not found in Chen style were added from Yang's mother art, plum blossom. Putting his own move in there was done to show his skill and that he had gone out the door. Wu Style as mentioned is a great example, it is highly compatible with SC because as I recall, the founder had extensive experience as a martial artist already. You see this all the time in Bagua and other arts too, the most successful students were already martial artists. Consider this deeply!

There is still a version of Tantui that is practiced in Chen Village, to this day.

Based on this (and since it is relevant, my experience as a beginner at Wu's Tai Chi way back in the 90s,) if you wanted to add leg skills to your Tai Chi, I would first ask you, if you are mature enough in your Tai Chi training to take responsibility for your Tai Chi training by yourself. Meaning, you are ready to "go outside of the house". If you do this too soon you will destroy your chance of getting ability in Tai Chi. That is because you have started training things that do not achieve your "Tai Chi goals", and from a Wu De perspective you have gone against your teacher's advice and teaching and to do what you want to do instead. It's a bit rude, but, western people have a hard time understanding this perspective. For example, do you think this champion is right or wrong?

What a difficult moral quandary!

So, now that we see you are ready to leave the house, I would suggest immediately adding leg pulling skill. That is a direct translation from Chinese. Why, because it immediately supports your Tai Chi within the framework of Tai Chi. Second, take on single movement practice. Start kicking bags. Not obsessively, but enough to get the hang of it. You might also want to add a brisk morning walk or jog -- 20 or 30 minutes? And, if you still feel the need to train, you can add Tantui to the mix. I like unaltered 10 roads Tantui for this purpose since it's minimalist. You can get away with Central Institute (i.e. Han Ching Tan) 10 roads Tantui too.

 

[Kung Fu Wang108]

The problem here is that if you try to use SC leg skills in Tai Chi you have to violate the Tai Chi principles: Good SC, bad TC!

I don't understand what violation you are talking about here.

My goal is to achieve good combat. I don't care which MA path can bring me to my goal. This is why I don't understand why you put style over combat in the first place.

 

[Kung Fu Wang108]

The problem here is that if you try to use SC leg skills in Tai Chi you have to violate the Tai Chi principles:

Why should anybody care about "violate the Taiji principles"?

If you write a

- website program in Java, you have violated the principle of C++ (object oriented) and LISP (recursive).
- AI program, you have to use LISP.

But if your job requires you to do so, you won't have any choice.

 

[windwalker099107]

Why should anybody care about "violate the Taiji principles"?

If you write a

- website program in Java, you have violated the principle of C++ (object oriented) and LISP (recursive).
- AI program, you have to use LISP.

But if your job requires you to do so, you won't have any choice.

If someone doesn’t care about “violating Taiji principles,”
it may mean they don’t know whether they’re actually practicing Taiji or not.

It’s like programming — if one can’t really write in Java, they might switch to another language and convince themselves it covers what they couldn’t do. It only shows that one's understanding of Java may not have been complete to begin with.

 

[Appledog46]

I don't understand what violation you are talking about here.

My goal is to achieve good combat. I don't care which MA path can bring me to my goal. This is why I don't understand why you put style over combat in the first place.

I would never expect you to ask me this. I think you know already. You told your teacher you could hang on the tree for five minutes. But your teacher said he could do it for ten minutes. Then later you went back and said you could do it for fifteen minutes but your teacher said he could already achieve 30 minutes. That takes a lot of practice. Meanwhile, over in the Eagle Claw school they are tossing dumbells into the air and catching them, tossing spinning bells and darts back and forth, all sorts of amazing tricks. The cuojiao people are kicking the floor, the xinyi people are stomping like elephants, chopping and stoming, "Pi!!!" "Yii!!!!" and you should know, you can't do everything! In one human life there isn't enough time to do all of this! And if you wanted to be an archer, it can take 10 or 20 years to change your bones. You cannot do everything.

It's so difficult to train martial arts, that some people only train one side!

But now I hear something different. I have to add things from other martial arts, because my martial art isn't good enough. I think what really happened is not that your door guarding move is better then mine, like this is a game of scissor paper stone. I think is just that you trained longer than me. Or maybe for me, like for many people, they just didn't train.

I always felt, the martial art is fine. I am the thing that is not good enough. I will just go train harder instead. Because if getting better combat was just about adding techniques, what you really mean to say it is not about training time. So, if you train one technique well you create a style. Like an archer who grows the bones after 10 or 20 years.

But maybe the truth is, I need to train in a different martial art because somehow it is defective. If this is true I would be very ashamed that I had not even practiced hard enough to know if my martial art was real or not. Because that is not somehting that we need to guess, is it? It is something we can go and find out any time we want to. Because human beings today are evil, and they never like to accept truth or personal responsibility, and always want to blame the flowers, the trees, or whatever art they are studying. A rock was in my way. The floor is slippery. Like in the Ip Man movie with Sammo Hung. This was an excuse that someone used against Xu Xiaodong. I stepped on a rock (or, a rock was in my shoe).

 

[Kung Fu Wang108]

If someone doesn’t care about “violating Taiji principles,”
it may mean they don’t know whether they’re actually practicing Taiji or not.

It’s like programming — if one can’t really write in Java, they might switch to another language and convince themselves it covers what they couldn’t do. It only shows that one's understanding of Java may not have been complete to begin with.

Taiji push hand violates the SC principle "Don't let your opponent's arm to touch your arm". In other words, you should not let your opponent to be able to sense your intention. When your opponent moves his arms in circle, you move your arms the same direction to avoid contact.

The term "It violate Taiji principles" bother me. I can also say :

- It violates SC principle.
- It violates long fist principle.
- It violates Zimen principle.
- ...

Where are we going to stop? If we allow this "violation" to stop us from learning, nobody can cross train MA at all.

But Jave is not suitable for writing AI program because Jave is not recursive. When your company needs you to write AI program, you can't say, "It violate my Java principle."

Is your job (combat) more important than your programming language Java (Taiji)? Your job (combat) support you and your family. Your Java (Taiji) is only one of your tools.

 

[Kung Fu Wang108]

I always felt, the martial art is fine. I am the thing that is not good enough.

When the 8 steps praying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang's student Su Quan-Ming went to Baiji school and learned from Baji master Liu Yuan-Chao. Su said, "Lu has just open my eyes". His comment made Wei mad big time. Su believed no matter how long he might stay in 8 steps preying mantis, He would never learn Baiji "compress and release" power generation method.

Since Adam Hsu introduced Su Quan-Ming into Baji school. One day I met Wei Shao-Tang in the park in Taiwan. I said to Wei, "Adam from US want me to say hello to you." Wei stood up from his chair and said, "I @#$% his 8 generation %$#@^&*!".

 

[windwalker099107]

The term "It violate Taiji principles" bother me. I can also say :

- It violates SC principle.
- It violates long fist principle.
- It violates Zimen principle.

Where are we going to stop?

Don’t know — you’re trying to frame the question as if I agree with the premise. I don’t.
I don’t worry about it.

For me the real question, when meeting others who practice or teach Taiji, is: what makes it Taiji?
Some I met could answer that. Others not — I moved on.

Those who work with me find their answers through me, just as I found mine through my teacher.

For those looking for something else they move on, or I recommend others, who may be a better fit for what some are really looking for.

 

[Kung Fu Wang108]

Don’t know — you’re trying to frame the question as if I agree with the premise. I don’t.
I don’t worry about it.

What do you do when 2 principle/strategies contradict each other?

1. Taiji push hand - you should contact your opponent's arm and sense his intention.
2. SC entering - you should not let your opponent's arm to contact your arm. You should move your hand in through the opening.

IMO, both has value in different way. So, why not just train both?

Maybe I should address this question to Appledog instead.

 

[Same Trick53]

So has the OP exercise been fruitful, has the kicking improved, any follow up on the OP video ?

 

[Appledog46]

So has the OP exercise been fruitful, has the kicking improved, any follow up on the OP video ?

It works for me. The exercise is essentially an extension of rub with heel, noting that the entry into the move (high pat on horse) is functionally similar to the exit move from kick with heel (wade forward). So I didn't really invent anything, I just looped that section of the form.

After practicing it like this for just a week I already found that my kicks had a lot more pop. After 28 days my wife didn't believe my results. I started to really enjoy standing up on the leg, I found it a great strength building exercise. I also have problems with cross-step since I severely damaged my ankles about 10 years ago and this allows me to gently and repeatedly work on them. I like it. I'm working on formalizing a series of moves like this, so that it is possible to teach the form in a broken down way via single movement practice. I like single movement practice. I am in fact a very simple minded person who enjoys repetitive labor.

 

[Xue Sheng101]

To get back to the video and away from the, “let’s try and talk about other styles because I have no understanding about taijiquan” discussion some are trying to have

The training in the video is very similar to a training my long fist shifu had us do when I trained long fist many moons ago. Just we had to be faster. Nice exercise.

And if you agree with Adam Hsu, taijiquan is basically a long fist style, then it makes sense

 

[Xue Sheng101]

Why should anybody care about "violate the Taiji principles"?

If you write a

- website program in Java, you have violated the principle of C++ (object oriented) and LISP (recursive).
- AI program, you have to use LISP.

But if your job requires you to do so, you won't have any choice.

Which begs the question why are you trying to talk about C++ and LISP, and trying to apply C++ and LISP, to a conversation about Java

 

[Marsha Larts]

What do you do when 2 principle/strategies contradict each other?

1. Taiji push hand - you should contact your opponent's arm and sense his intention.
2. SC entering - you should not let your opponent's arm to contact your arm. You should move your hand in through the opening.

IMO, both has value in different way. So, why not just train both?

That's the reasoning of a man who has his priorities straight in terms of practicality vs preference. The term, 'martial art' is often applied to the practice of taiji where there is no consideration given to the boxing method beyond a solo exercise that develops a particular movement skill that has yet to address the attribute(s) that that skill is purported to impart. A personal peeve, but not a big deal.

The opening post stated that the exercise shown "...can help you improve your Tai Chi Kicks!".

A bunch of posts later, Kung Fu Wang asks: "How does a Taiji guy develop/test his Taiji kicking?", to which an explanation is offered regarding the what, and the wherefore, instead of the how. It was a simple question that cuts to the chase. When and how does one begin unwrapping the boxing method from the solo practice in order to substantiate the claim that that solo practice actually does improve this or that attribute - in this case, Tai Chi Kicks? If there isn't a congruent progression of what is claimed to be developed in the solo practice to testing it as-is, the gap in that progression has to filled with something, or the practice is nothing more than choreography. If one is to refer to what they're practicing as a 'martial art' they should be able to answer that most basic question in plain, simple terms.

It comes down to the intellectual honesty of having a complete understanding or knowledge of what is being developed in the practice in guiding the progression of practice to some sort of martial truth without deviation from, or substitution for, the method itself. The only way out of that conundrum is to discard the notion that the practice is associated with a particular boxing method based on specific principles of movement and energy-management.

How does a Taiji guy develop/test his Taiji kicks?

 

[Kung Fu Wang108]

How does a Taiji guy develop/test his Taiji kicks?

If someone ask, "How does a long fist guy develop/test his kicks?", the answer can be: A long fist guy uses:

- partner drill to develop it.
- sparring to test it.
- weight on foot to enhance it.
- solo drill to polish it.

Should Taiji kicks use similar method?

This video shows to use weight to "enhance" the kick.

 

[windwalker099107]

I created this line practice because I like this move, and wanted to practice it many times each day.
This kind of practice can help you improve your Tai Chi Kicks!

Should have watched the video first before commenting.

The practice shown won’t really develop a proper Taiji kick — or even a solid kick in general.
The biggest issue is "leaning", using the torso to counterbalance the leg instead of moving the leg freely.
The foundation isn’t there yet.

These things can be fixed by sticking to the basics and staying within one’s functional range.
With time and correct development, the body can issue the kick without the compensations shown.

For those commenting on Taiji kicking — take a closer look at the practice being demoed.

The real question isn’t whether a Taiji practitioner can kick (anyone can throw a leg), but whether they can do it within the stated principles of proper alignment — Taiji or otherwise.

 

[Marsha Larts]

If someone ask, "How does a long fist guy develop/test his kicks?", the answer can be: A long fist guy uses:

- partner drill to develop it.
- sparring to test it.
- weight on foot to enhance it.
- solo drill to polish it.

Should Taiji kicks use similar method?

That is the universal method by which any empty hand Martial Art is made worthy of the label, Martial Art.

Yes, taiji should have that same approach if the purpose of its training is to develop a practical boxing method.

In asking how regards taijiquan, then, it's reasonable to expect that any answers offered up would include specific details of the structuring of exercises and drills based on the principles and methods that are sacrosanct. A lot of that is going to depend on the way one interprets the guidelines which have been laid out in the various family style treatises, but a well structured approach will appeal to the art universally regardless of its being applied to a particular style.

I'm unable to view the video due to copyright issues

*edit*
Forgot to thank you for outlining the SC leg skill exercises in your earlier post

 

[Kung Fu Wang108]

Yes, taiji should have that same approach if the purpose of its training is to develop a practical boxing method.

When talking about leg skill, to escape/counter of leg skill should also be addressed. Sometime the training for escaping a leg skill can be harder than to train the leg skill itself.

These videos show how to escape a leg skill. It's also an excellent training for strong rooting, balance, and flexibility.

 

[Marsha Larts]

When talking about leg skill, to escape/counter of leg skill should also be addressed. Sometime the training for escaping a leg skill can be harder than to train the leg skill itself.

These videos show how to escape a leg skill. It's also an excellent training for strong rooting, balance, and flexibility.

Love it

One of my favorite martial art training videos of all time shows that exercise.

The atmosphere, lighting, range of skill, determination of the beginners and the overall energy...hard core: