Charging Ram- Front Tackle

[MJS]

1: Standing with feet together, shift by sliding your left foot to 3 o'clock, into a right neutral bow and have your left hand parry opponents left arm down and out. Simultaneously deliver a right overhead, downward chop to opponents neck as your left hand guards at groin level.

2: Immediately deliver a right snapping ball kick to opponents rib cage, kicking toward 9 o'clock.

3: Plant your right foot slightly forward and deliver a left snapping ball kick to left jaw of opponent.

4: Cross/cover to 2 o'clock


Thought we could discuss this technique, any variations, etc. In addition, are any adjustments made to deal with a committed tackle?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

1: Standing with feet together, shift by sliding your left foot to 3 o'clock, into a right neutral bow and have your left hand parry opponents left arm down and out. Simultaneously deliver a right overhead, downward chop to opponents neck as your left hand guards at groin level.

2: Immediately deliver a right snapping ball kick to opponents rib cage, kicking toward 9 o'clock.

3: Plant your right foot slightly forward and deliver a left snapping ball kick to left jaw of opponent.

4: Cross/cover to 2 o'clock


Thought we could discuss this technique, any variations, etc. In addition, are any adjustments made to deal with a committed tackle?

To my understanding the attack is a committed tackle, but with the arms leading hense we can parry the arm. If the shoulder leads and the arms trail we end up getting wrapped by at least one of the arms which leads into Broken Ram.

I tend to slide more to 4:30 however to have a stronger bracing angle incase the parry misses and that left arm connects around the waist. Stepping to 3 doesn't have the same bracing angle and if the arm connects it's more likely to fall (and belly down no less, a big No No) and end up grappling. Not that I don't mind the grappling though )) but's not the first option.

 

[MattJ]

Never cared for that one. Seemed unlikely one would be able to get past the opponent's arm in the first place. I always ended up using the parry to strike the opponent's face, LOL. "Whoops! My bad!"

Seemed to work better that way.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Never cared for that one. Seemed unlikely one would be able to get past the opponent's arm in the first place. I always ended up using the parry to strike the opponent's face, LOL. "Whoops! My bad!"

Seemed to work better that way.

That's because almost no one leads with the arms in class. They lead with the body first and arms spread out wide like in football. But an experienced grappler will often lead with the arms in a manner similar to diving in swimming. It's quicker to get the legs that way but inexperienced grapplers think it's a simple as "bowling someone over". Unfortunately the kenpoist's giving the attacks usually aren't experienced grapplers. Hense, you get variations of this technique such as the infamous left chop to the clavicle followed by the right chop.

D**n! did I just break your collarbone! That technique didn't work as written! This stuff sucks, LOL.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I agree with KPJJ3. Slide your foot up the circle to 4:30. I suggest you stick the guy in the neck with a braced thrusting outward chop. Even if his momentum is to fast for you to stop you are still safe with the bracing ange and he (or she) will simply go by while you maintain enlighnment. I love this one because it is so similar to five swords but you are on the outside where you are supposed to be.
Sean

 

[michaeledward]

I worked this technique with my instructor's instructor, in a private lesson, this past weekend. I have not finished transcribing my notes from that lesson, but here are some thoughts we discussed.

Many beginners have a misunderstanding of the attack, because of the name; Charging does not mean to imply forward momentum on the part of the attacker, but rather the position the attacker. The attacker will be bent forward, in a similar body position of a Charging Ram. The attack, itself, consists of one step forward, and grab. Any forward momentum is halted by the attacker.

This type of attack can be completed with the attacker 'Leading with the Arms' (Charging Ram), or 'Leading with the Body' (Broken Ram). If the arms are foward, there is an opportunity to take action before the attacker reaches your body.

The step back must provide sufficient bracing against the attack. I think a step to 3 o'Clock would be incorrect. The attack force is coming from 12 o'Clock. In our step back, we are attempting to move off the line of attack, so the foot will move toward 4:30, but I think it may even be between 4:30 and 6, to provide the required stability.

The technique was written with the left outward parry to the attacker's left arm. But, he also suggested using a right inward parry to the attacker's left arm with a left heelpalm to the attacker's right ear. He called this the 'B Version'. After the heelpalm strike, the left hand continues over the attacker's head to pick up the left arm, and check the attacker's position, continuing to apply downward pressure, as the right hand circles for the handsword.

He stressed the marriage of gravity on the right downward handsword, settling into the kneel stance. He suggested that this strike could end the attack, dropping the attacker to the ground.

We learned the technique with a right ball kick to the ribs, and a left roundhouse to the face. He suggested three different left kicks based on the attacker's reaction to the first kick.

• Right front kick to the ribs - left front kick to the face, if the attacker is still bent over at the waist.
• Right front kick to the ribs - left diagonal roundhouse, if the attacker raises up partiall.
• Right front kick to the ribs - full left roundhouse, if the attacker is standing vertical.

Last thought for now. This is a chase technique. The attacker has no brace angle against the first kick, so he is going to be move down the 9 o'clock line pretty rapidly and pretty far; so, that right foot is going to have to plant pretty far forward as it lands from the kick.

 

[kenpoworks]

4:30 is the angle for me, I dont parry I strike the penetrative value of your first point(s) of contact is what keys this technique for me, I use correctly executed "blocks" as the model exercise when teaching Charging Ram.
Rich

 

[michaeledward]

4:30 is the angle for me, I dont parry I strike the penetrative value of your first point(s) of contact is what keys this technique for me, I use correctly executed "blocks" as the model exercise when teaching Charging Ram.
Rich

Rich,

I understand the first clause of this response -- move your left foot to 4:30.

What do you mean, 'strike the penetrative value'?

What do you mean, 'model exercise'?

I'm sure there is a reason you are using such language. To me, this language obscures meaning.

Can you help me understand the language choice you have made, and what that language is attempting to describe in the four dimension world in which we execute techniques?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I worked this technique with my instructor's instructor, in a private lesson, this past weekend. I have not finished transcribing my notes from that lesson, but here are some thoughts we discussed.

Many beginners have a misunderstanding of the attack, because of the name; Charging does not mean to imply forward momentum on the part of the attacker, but rather the position the attacker. The attacker will be bent forward, in a similar body position of a Charging Ram. The attack, itself, consists of one step forward, and grab. Any forward momentum is halted by the attacker.

This type of attack can be completed with the attacker 'Leading with the Arms' (Charging Ram), or 'Leading with the Body' (Broken Ram). If the arms are foward, there is an opportunity to take action before the attacker reaches your body.

The step back must provide sufficient bracing against the attack. I think a step to 3 o'Clock would be incorrect. The attack force is coming from 12 o'Clock. In our step back, we are attempting to move off the line of attack, so the foot will move toward 4:30, but I think it may even be between 4:30 and 6, to provide the required stability.

The technique was written with the left outward parry to the attacker's left arm. But, he also suggested using a right inward parry to the attacker's left arm with a left heelpalm to the attacker's right ear. He called this the 'B Version'. After the heelpalm strike, the left hand continues over the attacker's head to pick up the left arm, and check the attacker's position, continuing to apply downward pressure, as the right hand circles for the handsword.

He stressed the marriage of gravity on the right downward handsword, settling into the kneel stance. He suggested that this strike could end the attack, dropping the attacker to the ground.

We learned the technique with a right ball kick to the ribs, and a left roundhouse to the face. He suggested three different left kicks based on the attacker's reaction to the first kick.

• Right front kick to the ribs - left front kick to the face, if the attacker is still bent over at the waist.
• Right front kick to the ribs - left diagonal roundhouse, if the attacker raises up partiall.
• Right front kick to the ribs - full left roundhouse, if the attacker is standing vertical.

Last thought for now. This is a chase technique. The attacker has no brace angle against the first kick, so he is going to be move down the 9 o'clock line pretty rapidly and pretty far; so, that right foot is going to have to plant pretty far forward as it lands from the kick.

I'm in agreement with all of this except the part about the attacker "taking one step and trying to grab". If that is the ideal phase "as written" then that needs a new look in my opnion. Any grappler (Ju Jitsu Wrestling or whatever) that knows how to use that "grab" knows he has to take at THE LEAST two steps. One step to grab and the second step to either blow through for the drive down or get the hips underneath your hips for the lift. Taking one step only is suicide.... If it is one step it's another example of training to fight the guy who doesn't know much. But then again it is an orange belt technique and the first "official" tackle technique so it has to be relatively easy. I just have a bias against spending training time learning to beat the inept. Ok, this turned into a rant....LOL

 

[michaeledward]

My conversation with my instructor's instructor was that only in the technique 'Intercepting the Ram' does the aggressor apply any forward momentum. In both Charging Ram and Broken Ram, he was very clear, the attack is that the aggressor takes a step in, and stops himself.

I do not speak to the technical term 'grab' as used by grapplers and grappling systems. It may have a specific meaning in other systems that I am unaware of, and therefore unable to comment on the definition as used.

As for training to "beat the inept", doesn't much of what we learn kind of mandate 'read time' - and isn't read time a symptom of an opponent being inept? If our opponent is using proper technique, is there really going to be any way to defend against it? Isn't 'action' faster than 'reaction'?

 

[kenpoworks]

Rich,

I understand the first clause of this response -- move your left foot to 4:30.

What do you mean, 'strike the penetrative value'?

What do you mean, 'model exercise'?

I'm sure there is a reason you are using such language. To me, this language obscures meaning.

Can you help me understand the language choice you have made, and what that language is attempting to describe in the four dimension world in which we execute techniques?[/quoute]



Michael Hi,
because Kenpo is fundamentally a striking art, I make sure that the 1st time I make contact with an opponent that it has (hopefully) a detrimental effect on him. No matter which technique I am employing.
Not only do I want to address his forward momentum with an angle change but I also want to try and effect his width (as well as attempt to stun) with the 2 hammerfist strikes, but also attack his height with an inward overhead hammerfist to the nape of the neck, which hopefully will have a stunning effect on the attacker also.
The "model" exercise is Star Block Set, probably one of the most neglected sets because its Yellow belt stuff.
I would say that when it comes to dimensions and using them as a reference as well as a training/teaching/learning tool then there are 5.
Of course it would be easier to show you.
with respect
Rich

 

[HKphooey]

For the first kick, many have posted they use a front ball snap kick to the ribs. Curious as to that choice over an "punt" or instep kick. I personally use both depending on the situation.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

My conversation with my instructor's instructor was that only in the technique 'Intercepting the Ram' does the aggressor apply any forward momentum. In both Charging Ram and Broken Ram, he was very clear, the attack is that the aggressor takes a step in, and stops himself.

I do not speak to the technical term 'grab' as used by grapplers and grappling systems. It may have a specific meaning in other systems that I am unaware of, and therefore unable to comment on the definition as used.

As for training to "beat the inept", doesn't much of what we learn kind of mandate 'read time' - and isn't read time a symptom of an opponent being inept? If our opponent is using proper technique, is there really going to be any way to defend against it? Isn't 'action' faster than 'reaction'?

Different strokes for different folks. In my instruction the difference between the attacks has been Environment, arm positioning and opponent range the forward momentum was always there and Charging was not used ot mention body position as all of the Ram's have forward momentum behind the attack...even Bear and The Ram (Ram as in Battering Ram). But different lines look at things different ways. I'm a grappler so I know what a tackle is for from a grappling perspective and apply that to Kenpo. A one step tackle is an idiot move and suicidal to say the least, it is never done by the experienced. The lead leg is always followed by the "trail" leg (rear leg) whether it's a shoot or an attempted clinch. Otherwise the attempt is just that an attempt with marginal chance at success due to lack of positioning, penetration and leverage.

By grab I meant the initial action of the tackle which is the arms engaging the opponent to either wrap up the legs, torso or hips or a combination there of.

NO read time is not indicative of the opponent being inept. Read time is a "sliding scale" depending on differences in skill level. The more skilled you are than the attacker the more read time you will have in relation to his moves. It's a difference in reaction time in other words. Also if you're skilled in reading body language and the attacker is unskilled in minimizing telegraphing you will again hav more read time. Read time is often a perceptual skill instead of a physical one (remember the three speeds and the heirarchy there of) And action IS NOT always faster than reaction. If that were the case Blocks, Parries, Bobs, Weaves, and Slips would NEVER be successful as they are reactionary defensive measures by nature. Reaction often beats action as a matter of fact reation beats action at least 154 times in the Kenpo system or none of the stuff works..

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

For the first kick, many have posted they use a front ball snap kick to the ribs. Curious as to that choice over an "punt" or instep kick. I personally use both depending on the situation.

I only use the instep when I don't want to hurt something, or am kicking the back of the knee and don't want my toes getting bent backwards when their knee buckles. Using the instep spreads the force over too wide of an area. I'm trying to but my foot through their solar plexus or face depending on where I'm throwing the kick this particular time doing Charging Ram...

 

[HKphooey]

I only use the instep when I don't want to hurt something, or am kicking the back of the knee and don't want my toes getting bent backwards when their knee buckles. Using the instep spreads the force over too wide of an area. I'm trying to but my foot through their solar plexus or face depending on where I'm throwing the kick this particular time doing Charging Ram...

Thanks. Most of the time when I practice this technique the person is bent to low to attack the solar plexus with the snap kick. But I am also 6'7".

But if going to the rib cage on the side, the front snap will do more damage.

 

[DavidCC]

Many beginners have a misunderstanding of the attack, because of the name; Charging does not mean to imply forward momentum on the part of the attacker, but rather the position the attacker. The attacker will be bent forward, in a similar body position of a Charging Ram. The attack, itself, consists of one step forward, and grab. Any forward momentum is halted by the attacker.

Why would anyone EVER do that??? What is the attacker trying to accomplish by stopping their own momentum?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Thanks. Most of the time when I practice this technique the person is bent to low to attack the solar plexus with the snap kick. But I am also 6'7".

But if going to the rib cage on the side, the front snap will do more damage.

D**n!! you got me by a whole foot! See for people like you I train Migun-Bigerdin-Urs an I recently started cross training in Aishu-Tibeta with Carol Kuar. LOL

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Why would anyone EVER do that??? What is the attacker trying to accomplish by stopping their own momentum?

Getting himself nailed with hard knees and elbows maybe???:idunno:

 

[HKphooey]

D**n!! you got me by a whole foot! See for people like you I train Migun-Bigerdin-Urs an I recently started cross training in Aishu-Tibeta with Carol Kuar. LOL

Lol!!!

 

[michaeledward]

Reaction often beats action as a matter of fact reation beats action at least 154 times in the Kenpo system or none of the stuff works..

Many times I have heard the phrase, "If you can't read it, you can't defend against it". I believe that was attributed to Bruce Lee. I believe the American Kenpo techniques that I train have this as an underlying concept. I hold this belief, because it has this information has been shared with me by people far more experienced and far more skilled than me.