Certain TKD Tech.

[fissure]

Does the standard TKD method of forming a Knifehand block- returning both hands to the rear of the body when chambering- make sence to anyone?
I have always prefered the Karate method of leading with the non blocking hand, in fact I tend to do this with most of my blocking tech.
Also, does the idea of keeping your hips square during blocking motions (when formed in a front or walking stance) "feel right". I don't like having to rechamber my hips when punching after such.
Since I don't like these methods, I don't use them.I'm just wondering if anyone has a reason they are done this way - other than to be different than Karate.

 

[Bagatha]

Im not sure what your describing regarding the knifehand bock, there are a bizillion different knifehand blocks and many TKD schools will do them differently. The hips I can comment on though. EVERYONE knows that power comes from your hips, even Karate. If you didnt learn to roll [chamber or whatever] your hips then 1. Your teacher wasnt very good or 2. You didnt take it long enough because this is not exclusive to TKD at all. TKD took it from karate. Boxers do it. Kung Fu guys do it. Muay Thai, like everyone.

 

[mtabone]

Bagatha has it right.


Respectfully,

Michael Tabone

 

[fissure]

No,No,NO.
I'm fully aware that hip rotation gives power.
TKD, at least WTF TKD, finishes blocking tech. with the hips square when executed in a front stance. To then throw a reverse punch the hip has to be drawn back first, then shot forward again with the punch.
In Karate blocking motions end with the hips at an angle, such that the rear hip is already back, and doesn't need re- chambering.
If you thought I was disputing hip power, then I must not have asked my question very well. Possibly in ITF TKD (which I believe you practice?)front stance blocks end with the hips chambered, and you didn't realize my intent.
As to the standard middle knife hand block. Again in WTF land, the rear hand (the one that ends covering the solar plexas(s.p?)) is drawn to the rear of the body. This places BOTH hands at the side of your body farthest from your opponent. This just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me.
If ITF tech. standards differ from WTF ideals that may, again, be the reason you are having a hard time picturing what I am trying to describe.
BTW I have been practicing TKD for 17yrs, with almost a decade of Japanese arts prior to that. Quality and length of training are not a problem!
Perhaps another WTF guy can help me out here, White Belt I would like your thoughts. At least I think you will know what I'm talking about.

 

[Bagatha]

LOL!! Okay, I think I know what your talking about, we call it full facing. There are not too many blocks that we do in ITF TKD that end up full facing. I can tell you why not, so I dont know why you would.

Peace.

 

[jfarnsworth]

These are some of the reasons why I got out of TKD. My instructor at the time was an independent but previous he was sanctioned through the ITF. Anyway the knife hand blocks and various other things absolutely didn't make sense to me. After 5.5 yrs. I had to leave to search out something that suited me. I landed in a kenpo studio where everything had a purpose and a reason behind it. There was a phrase of "no wasted motion" that is a paramount of the kenpo system. Look at form 9 Choong-Moo. There's a 360 degree jumping spin CCW and when you land your double knifehand strike out moving CW. There's no practical purpose for this movement. I'm sorry for the rant excuse me but it's been on my mind for quite a while.

 

[Bagatha]

I dont think there is a practical purpose for any 1 of the moves in any of the patterns. Thats JMO. Does that make them useless?? Not in the least. Your coordination will improve 10 fold by practicing patterns. Everything will become easier and require less work the better you get at patterns. Does that mean Im going to run out and do Move # 1 from Saju Tirugi in a fight? Not a chance in hell lol.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Bagatha
Does that mean Im going to run out and do Move # 1 from Saju Tirugi in a fight? Not a chance in hell lol.

Sweet, I like your style. Seriously though I think my instructor at the time was running one of those mcdojo's . What i felt had to pratical purpose had a lot to do with the forms. Most of all it was the self-defense tech.'s found within the system. Yeah fighting was fun but to understand a martial art you need to breakdown the self-defense tech. This is your meat and potatoes in any system. What we work on in kenpo is opposites, reverses, and many many more things. As I said everything has a purpose. I love it and it suits me perfectly. Thanks for taking the time to respond your feelings.

 

[Bagatha]

Sorry about your experiences, but at least you went out and found something that suited you. Alot of people would have quit altogether.

 

[jfarnsworth]

You've got that right. Most actually do once they reach black anyway. My wife hates the martial arts and tried to make me quit here in dec. It only lasted 3 weeks as I became a little frustrated without having my hands on weekly beatings in the studio . Then she decided I was a better person getting in the dojo. Anyway would you mind if I sent you something over a PM.

 

[fissure]

Full facing! That's a good description. No, don't get it either and have never heard a reasonable exp. for it in all of my many yrs. at TKD. that's why I don't do it!

Anyway the knife hand blocks and various other things absolutely didn't make sense to me

I dont think there is a practical purpose for any 1 of the moves in any of the patterns.

I hate to say it, but there are alternate applications for most tech. in TKD and other arts. As far as the knife hand middle block, I have 2 that I'm particularly fond of. I know that many MAist don't subscribe to these type of apps. So I won't get into them unless anyone wants to.
The problem I have with the TKD knife block is that these other apps. seem to fit it better than the first taught use i.e. a simple knife block! In all other instances the "basic" app fits the movement without adjustment, whereas the "advanced" app. often requires slight tweek.The "put both hands to the rear" chamber just doesn't seem to make sense in regard to the initially taught application.

 

[fissure]

Anyway the knife hand blocks and various other things absolutely didn't make sense to me

There's a 360 degree jumping spin CCW and when you land your double knifehand strike out moving CW. There's no practical purpose for this movement.

I think your "instructor" may not have been the most knowledgeable jfarnsworth! If he couldn't show you even 1 application for a movement it doesn't speak highly of his own instructor. Watering down is a problem in TKD even more so than other arts!

 

[fissure]

to understand a martial art you need to breakdown the self-defense tech. This is your meat and potatoes in any system. What we work on in kenpo is opposites, reverses, and many many more things. As I said everything has a purpose.

Indeed! This is how things should be done in MAs.This is how things are done in ligitimate TKD dojang as well.It seems that you were another in along list of victims of crap TKD.

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Anyway would you mind if I sent you something over a PM.

I had a bad experience with 1 of the people here sending me PM's so I deactivated the feature. I will turn it on again now and you can try, but if it turns off again abruptly then thats why.

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

If I am understanding your question correctly, you are describing what is called two knife (or knives) high in my system. The forward hand ends up with the palm facing out and the rear hand ends up at the solar plexus while in a sideways stance.

Consider that you are not chambering with the front or rear hand. You are actually executing a PARRY when drawing your arms to the back in that "chamber". The front hands palm is making contact at the back of the punching arms elbow allowing it to slip past and reach its extension. The rear hand extends to the rear to guide and catch the thumb side of the forearm. To see this correctly, have another person extend their right arm and then put your right palm on the back/point of their right elbow while you stand with your right leg forward in a side stance. Your left/rear hand is in a rearward position with palm up near the partners wrist on that punching arm. The punching arm is now sandwiched or scissored between your hands in that rearward "chambered position". The scissoring itself can pop the punching arms elbow, if done accurately, with snap. The left hand keeps the punching arms elbow straight. Your left/rear hand is then trapping their arm against/across your ribcage when it comes forward into your solar plexus. Your right arm releases forward, into the Carotid or Trachea with the knife hand, as it slides across the top of the punching arm using it as a sort of guide to the attackers neck/throat area. The force of the knife hand blow to the neck causes the trapped arms elbow to hyperextend or break as it trys to turn around your ribcage with the forearm pinned tightly to you. The stepping forward of your right leg, with the forward right hand, is to step BEHIND or PAST the opponents left/forward leg and this sets up a trip or sweep allowing their falling bodyweight to add force to the hyperextending of the elbow. If the attackers arm slips out of your grasp at the solar plexus, the lead knife hand to the throat sends them over your right leg in throw like fashion anyway. In essence the TRUE block takes place DURING THE REARWARD CHAMBER AS A TYPE OF PARRY AND TRAP. The forward release is NOT the block, it is a COUNTERATTACK using a throat/neck strike with an elbow break and throw/sweep. The discarding of the proper rearward chamber will make this movement all but useless as a sensible tactic.

I know you have looked many times using the "typical" explanation and realized that by the time you start chambering, you are already being punched! I once felt the same way. It is frustrating because you know deep inside that it is right in front of you, but hidden at the same time. The chamber IS the block that redirects the punching arm. The palm portion of your chambering knife hand is redirecting/parrying the punch. The same knife hand coming forward is meeting their forward momentum, head on, at the throat. This is from my WTF TKD studies. If any further questions, let me know. The common explanations, that were spread for years, make the real apps. harder to see. We Occidentals have been fooled quite a bit it seems. These movements are not hollow exercises as some unfortunately think. They are all brutal fight stoppers when understood.

white belt

 

[fissure]

Interesting! From a prior post of mine:

I hate to say it, but there are alternate applications for most tech. in TKD and other arts. As far as the knife hand middle block, I have 2 that I'm particularly fond of.

The first uses the "rearward chamber" as a trapping motion to be followed by a knife hand block that has in fact now become a strike.
The second blocks and traps the attackers limb, pulls it in to and past you as your rear leg sweeps your opponent.
These seem quite similar to your own.

The block I'm talking about is the knife hand middle block in a back stance, the block that starts Koreyo. As I stated before, this tech. seem well suited to more advanced apps. but not for the most basic app. of being a simple knife hand block. In this most rudimentary of usage the action of placing both hand to the rear seems self defeating.

The problem I have with the TKD knife block is that these other apps. seem to fit it better than the first taught use i.e. a simple knife block! In all other instances the "basic" app fits the movement without adjustment, whereas the "advanced" app. often requires slight tweek.

For example: the use of a down block chamber as the blocking motion itself, the "pointing hand" as a strike/grab, and the downward blocking movement as a strike. This app. fits the movement, only needing a slight adjustment of the chamber (now a block) to cover more of the side of the face and head.
However, when a down blocking motion is used as a down block things still make sense - everything is where it is needs to be!
With the middle knife hand block the basic app. seeems to fall apart, making me wonder if it should even be called as such!

 

[fissure]

White Belt, as a WTF affiliated dojang do you end your blocking tech. performed from the front stance with your hips square or full facing (thank you Bagatha!) as put forth by the Kukkiwon Textbook?
I can still think of no reason to do this! The need to rechamber the hips for a counter punch combined with the increased amount of ones torso that is offered as a target would seem to be self defeating.
These 2 items have bugged me over the years, even with much thought and varied training.
My conclusion (at least for the moment) is that the WTF TKD knife hand middle block should not be taught as a knife hand middle block at all. It's a perfectly good movement - just not for the commonly stated purpose.
And that in their wisdom someone in Korea thought that squaring up the hips in the movements I have described would be a good way to make WTF TKD look different from Shotokan!

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

My apologies. I went at length explaining an app. that you already know while misunderstanding the question. Yes, I agree that the "basic" apps. first taught to a student are misleading. I think a lot of the intent has to do with teaching basic motor skills to a new student. The simplest explanation or app. is used, which in reality is all but useless. I asked my GM about this a couple of times and I received two explanations. First, he had too many students overthinking the "real" apps., if taught from the get go, and they learned/performed the forms way too slow. Most would get a log jam and freeze up. They are not that easy to visualize without a partner standing in front of you. The Second reason he got away from teaching "real" apps. was that a few students in his past seriously hurt people outside of the DoJang. He questioned whether or not this was justified. A lawsuit was even threatened toward him for teaching an irresponsible student apps. that maimed someone. He was just trying to run a school like anybody else and keep the doors open. He backed off on teaching this stuff and he is real jumpy about me ending up in a mess if I teach the wrong person. This view from a certified GM and then beginners not really knowing the true apps. that later become Instructors is part of the reason why McDojangs pop up. Advanced, and supposedly advanced, people teaching the things you point out that get people's asses kicked by know nothings.

There is a thread titled "Won-Hyo technical question". I tried to share an advanced app. with a couple of people (not very successfully), concerning a low block using the front stance. If you examine, and can understand my attempted explanation, you will see why the squaring of the hips fully forward would be essential in this case. The hips following through give more power to the rotational forces needed to properly break or snap the persons leg joints. The partial hip rotation is a beginning way taught at my school for the "beginning" apps. If the advanced app. is not being taught, the partial hip rotation more matches the beginners interpretation or application. The advanced apps. match the full turning or front facing of the hips because the hips are fueling the rendering of joint tissue. I have come off a bit snobbish during my explanations because I express concern about someone getting hurt doing this stuff. I now assume that is a given and people will do these things at their own risk. I have had my knee broken and I just don't want anyone to go thru what I have if they don't deserve it.

Well, hopefully I am understanding your questions better!

The two knife block in the beginning of Koryo. I use the "kick catching app.". The double sidekick is then aimed at the opponents posted knee and groin respectively. Ditto?

white belt

 

[fissure]

The two knife block in the beginning of Koryo. I use the "kick catching app.". The double sidekick is then aimed at the opponents posted knee and groin respectively. Ditto?

Yes, block and trap the shin area for a round kick or the calf area against a side ( or back) kick. Then bouble side kick to the areas you mention.Knife stike to the neck+ sweep with the forward leg (extend behind the opponent support leg - pulling your leg back toward you into the front stance, bringing his leg out in front of him. Of course in all likelihood the side kicks you delt would probably have him on the groud already!), finish with the reverse punch to your now "downed" opponent.
Damn, it's hard to get these things across in print!!

I can see where a full forwrd hip rotation would benift when a front stance blocking motion is being used in a trapping/breaking application.
I think the broblem I'm having is one due to prior exp. When training in Japanese arts the (slightly different) motions seemed to best fit the basic (althought I don't think any "less correct") application. With TKD however some movements seem to be a far better fit for the alternative uses, leaving the first taught tech. wanting.
Probably it's just my mindset but I feel that a movement should at least make sence in the application it is named for, i.e. a knife hand block should first make sence to use as such, before being named so!
I read and posted in the other thread you mentioned.I think my impression of your posts at that time were that you thought that app. xyz, was the "only" or the "best" app. for a movement.
I'm still not sure where you stand on this. My thoughts at this time are that any application that WORKS for a given movement , without alltering it a huge way is fine with me!
I'm enjoying this discussion very much, thanks for your responses.:asian:

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

You demonstrate an understanding of apps. that unfortunately for TKD is rare. You also explain in text very well. I don't give credence to the "rough fit" apps. If the fit is comfortable, w/o my making some stretch of alteration, I embrace it.

The beginners apps. are the status quo to far too many people. I include some people of high rank in that statement. This is not a jab at them. It is just an indication as to where faithful dogma can lead. Nowhere. You then end up with practicioners that are jaded concerning the forms usefullness. If I only allowed the beginning version of apps. to be my focus, I too would be jaded.

Here is where I expect to catch heat. The legacy series, by GM Choi, focuses on beginning apps. primarily. This has led to the majority of ITF students thinking those apps. are the final word. They are to be admired in their faithfulness, but they don't consider the possibility of advanced apps. taught by GM Choi to advanced students. The printed versions are not the final word. I don't believe GM Choi meant this limitation to happen. I think he meant to give a clean starting reference for teachers and students so later they COULD understand the advanced possibilities. Not to stop dead in their understanding. The explanations I give, to the moves in Won-Hyo, breathes new power into the old block and punch beginner apps. This is not some genious on my part, it is genious meant to be shared by the creator/s. I am just reading their "physical record".

Well, here it comes!
white belt