Can you help me confirm information regarding the association I trained in as a kid?

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NikOnder

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I'm not a fan of kids that young taking MA, either. However, I've seen classes tailored to those ages, and none of them were actually teaching how to hurt, maim, and possibly kill, beyond the ability of a 5-year-old to hit. Most are focused on using MA movements to improve physical ability (like any sport) and helping develop patience, discipline, etc.

then it's not really martial arts in my opinion it's Tai Bo or Boxercise.

Sure it may be watered down TKD for kids or whatever, but I still fail to see your point. By that logic, basically you're saying I should enroll my kid in tap-dancing or Tee Ball or whatever age appropriate activity because TKD would be pointless at this age? In the same sentence of your argument against a 5 year old taking MA classes, you go on to say : "I'd also take issue with the description of 'suburban kids' which somehow implies they are less worthy of being taught martial arts." ...what?

I never said I was against programs that cater to suburban families just looking for an after-school activity for their kids, like the ATA, which will take kids as young as 3. I thought I made it VERY clear that the point is that if I'm going to put my kid into a school and a program I might as well do my damn homework and make sure it's something that he can carry with him for life so he's not doing the same thing I am now in 30 years.
The two questions I asked in the OP were: 1.) Can anyone confirm the association I studied in (To educate my decision on a school for him and so I will know should I want to join with my kid) and 2.) Do they keep records for previous students (so I will know should I want to join with my kid). That was it....

As far as a 5 year old taking MA classes, sure he may do the damn junior belt program and kid black belts etc etc yadda yadda, the point is what happens should he want to pursue it into adulthood? Why the hell not make sure wherever he starts training at 5 wouldn't be a place he can still fit in and train at 55?
Are there a lot of Tee Ball or Kick Ball for adult clubs and programs around? Or an Olympic Red Rover or hop-scotch program that I'm not aware of?
 
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NikOnder

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How is asking whether a 5-year-old might be too young for taekwondo classes hyperbole? How is questioning the beating of child by a taekwondo teacher hyperbole? Why would you accept such beating to be an example of how to teach something to a child, especially if it's not something the child should take seriously? How does posting the picture of kids who are seven years and up answer those simple questions about a five year old? Hyperbole, according to the Oxford English dictionary means, "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally." How does my post conform to that definition?

Hyperbole is repeatedly insisting a child was "beaten" and asking loaded questions like "Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?" when I very clearly stated WAY before your input that the one or two times a kid was reprimanded they got barely a tap. I even included a quote of myself saying that just to make sure you saw it, but that quote was from page one. I understand that in a barely 2 page thread, it must be such a pain in the butt to read the whole thing from the beginning.
 

Tez3

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Sure it may be watered down TKD for kids or whatever, but I still fail to see your point. By that logic, basically you're saying I should enroll my kid in tap-dancing or Tee Ball or whatever age appropriate activity because TKD would be pointless at this age?

I'm not sure why you are being so aggressive. I said in my opinion martial arts shouldn't be taught too young, five is too young so yes something age appropriate would be, well, appropriate. Tap dancing is also not appropriate for a five year old, no idea what 'Tap Ball' is.

I'd also take issue with the description of 'suburban kids' which somehow implies they are less worthy of being taught martial arts." ...what?
Your sentence comes across as saying you think your kid is better than suburban kids which has absolutely no meaning whatsoever, why don't you like subanban kids?

I never said I was against programs that cater to suburban families just looking for an after-school activity for their kids, like the ATA, which will take kids as young as

In the UK we don't have martial arts clubs/schools running after school clubs. It wouldn't be allowed as it wouldn't meet OFSTED standards.

The two questions I asked in the OP were: 1.) Can anyone confirm the association I studied in (To educate my decision on a school for him and so I will know should I want to join with my kid) and 2.) Do they keep records for previous students (so I will know should I want to join with my kid). That was it....

This is a discussion board, you can ask questions of course but every time you will also get discussion.

As far as a 5 year old taking MA classes, sure he may do the damn junior belt program and kid black belts etc etc yadda yadda, the point is what happens should he want to pursue it into adulthood? Why the hell not make sure wherever he starts training at 5 wouldn't be a place he can still fit in and train at 55?

Do you always curse when you disagree with someone?
In mine and many others opinions five is too young to start martial arts, I will take them when they are ten, others won't take them under 18. why not introduce your child to a variety of sports and interests many of which you can do together and see which he likes best, which he has an aptitude for. Make him well rounded rather than plan out his martial arts life from 5-55, makes the instructors lives a lot better that's for sure, never mind your sons.




Are there a lot of Tee Ball or Kick Ball for adult clubs and programs around? Or an Olympic Red Rover or hop-scotch program that I'm not aware of?


No idea what Tee Ball or Kick Ball is nor Olympic Red Rover.
 

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Hyperbole is repeatedly insisting a child was "beaten" and asking loaded questions like "Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?" when I very clearly stated WAY before your input that the one or two times a kid was reprimanded they got barely a tap. I even included a quote of myself saying that just to make sure you saw it, but that quote was from page one. I understand that in a barely 2 page thread, it must be such a pain in the butt to read the whole thing from the beginning.

'Barely a tap', mmm no child should be touched by an adult who is not the parent. To allow anyone to 'tap' your child is the thin edge of the wedge, when does the tap become a bit harder because the individual has lost their patience? What if the tap across the backside is done for sexual gratification ( see my posts about coaches being investigated from a time when smacking was seen as being fine, we now know it's not).

As I said before, this is a discussion board, you are going to get many opinions, many viewpoints because when you start a thread you start a discussion, there's no need for you to be sarcastic to Arch because you don't like what he said.
 

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Exactly how could someone teach a 5 year old to hurt, maim and possibly kill people" That would have to be some 5 year old.

Sadly we see that in some countries children are taught to kill and maim people, child soldiers are something no one wants.
Martial arts has been turned by some into a 'fun' activity that bears no relation to what it should be. I very much believe that you should enjoy practising martial arts but that it's not an activity for young children. Even if you go through the motions of kicking and punching with a young child you are still teaching someone with no concept of life's responsibilities yet ( and nor should they!) how to hurt someone. Teaching respect and discipline is a parent's job, coaches can reinforce that teaching of course but coaches from any activity can do that as well as a number of other organisations such as Scouting, Guiding etc all should be age appropriate. Martial arts, taught properly is not for 5 year olds and martial arts should always be taught properly.
 

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No idea what Tee Ball or Kick Ball is nor Olympic Red Rover.
Tee Ball is like baseball but with no pitcher. Instead the ball is put on a stick in front of the batter. Kick Ball is like Baseball but with a soccer type ball that is kicked around to the bases on the ground. Red Rover is a children's game that involves two teams lined up like a chain on opposite sides of a field and one player at a time tries to break through the opposite line.
 

Tez3

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Ah rounders then. :D:D

Red Rover sounds fun and has the potential to be lovely and violent! :D If you want a character building game, try British Bulldog! Urban Dictionary: british bulldog We used to play it at school, greatest fun ever. Only the name is banned btw, the game isn't...well that's how the Brits look at it, a rose by any other name you know. :D
 

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Folks, some of these posts come across as a little heated. Let's all take it down a notch, please.
Thank you.
 
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NikOnder

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Folks, some of these posts come across as a little heated. Let's all take it down a notch, please.
Thank you.

Agreed......
it is a bit mind numbing when I'm having to read posts like "'Barely a tap', mmm no child should be touched by an adult who is not the parent. To allow anyone to 'tap' your child is the thin edge of the wedge, when does the tap become a bit harder because the individual has lost their patience? What if the tap across the backside is done for sexual gratification"

and "Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?" in a thread essentially asking for input on starting a child in classes, though.
 

Tez3

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Agreed......
it is a bit mind numbing when I'm having to read posts like "'Barely a tap', mmm no child should be touched by an adult who is not the parent. To allow anyone to 'tap' your child is the thin edge of the wedge, when does the tap become a bit harder because the individual has lost their patience? What if the tap across the backside is done for sexual gratification"

and "Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?" in a thread essentially asking for input on starting a child in classes, though.

Oh dear, oh dear. I think you are being far too sensitive, no one here is being heated apart from you. I have been in martial arts a very, very long time, being somewhat old and I don't believe in even 'tapping' a child, I didn't smack my children and would never touch another's. If it's mind numbing to you then don't read it but I would suggest you haven't had to deal with other people's children much. We have a duty of care to our students, especially to children to ensure their safety, if you think this is trivial then I'm afraid we disagree majorly.
It's quite some going when you have been here less than a week, disrespect long time posters yet talk about learning about respect as being important, very amusing.:D Please don't think we are upset, we're not, we're just being martial arts instructors who care about our students.:)
 

Tez3

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Sounds a bit like 'Ship to Shore' or 'What's the time Mr Wolf'.

I know what's the time Mr. Wolf but that's a 'soft' game lol. BB is like MMA without rules, it's not so bad played with boys but when girls play........ nasty! roflmao.
 
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NikOnder

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Oh dear, oh dear. I think you are being far too sensitive, no one here is being heated apart from you. I have been in martial arts a very, very long time, being somewhat old and I don't believe in even 'tapping' a child, I didn't smack my children and would never touch another's. If it's mind numbing to you then don't read it but I would suggest you haven't had to deal with other people's children much. We have a duty of care to our students, especially to children to ensure their safety, if you think this is trivial then I'm afraid we disagree majorly.
It's quite some going when you have been here less than a week, disrespect long time posters yet talk about learning about respect as being important, very amusing.:D Please don't think we are upset, we're not, we're just being martial arts instructors who care about our students.:)

That's all valid, I became bothered because the thread was going fine when out of nowhere someone posts loaded and obviously argumentative stuff:
What makes you think taekwondo or any martial art is what a 5-year-old kid should be doing as a serious thing?

Sorry, but I would never consider any taekwondo or martial arts teacher who hits children with a bamboo stick to be an "exceptional leader." That's an example of a teacher (especially if it was being done in the 1990s) who should be kept as far as possible from children. If a child acts up constantly in a dojang, there's an easy and reasonable remedy: kick out that child and let those who want to learn learn. Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?

I take it personally because it's my kid and my character as a parent that was subtly being provoked and, frankly, no one asked for anyone's self righteous opinion. We were having a perfectly fine conversation here before hand.
Your posts also seemed overblown and devoid of logic, basically parroting talking points the other guy made for the sake of stirring up argument. That's why I had a problem with your first couple posts.
Anyway, I agree getting into tit for tat's on message boards is stupid and basically human behavior at it's lowest common denominator, so if it makes everyone happy just pretend I said my kid is 7 and never mentioned the bamboo paddle. I'll be happy to play along.
 

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That's all valid, I became bothered because the thread was going fine when out of nowhere someone posts loaded and obviously argumentative stuff:
I take it personally because it's my kid and my character as a parent that was subtly being provoked and, frankly, no one asked for anyone's self righteous opinion..

Welcome to the taekwondo forum. You post here, expect vigorous discussion from all and sundry and don't take it personally. Nobody has questioned your character as a parent. The things that caught my attention from your op and triggered my response were:
1. Your subtle disparagement of the ATA franchise in your area.
2. Your line stating: "Master Kim had to use the dreaded bamboo sword to paddle a kid in front of the class who just would not stop acting up and get his ****."
3. Your interest in finding a taekwondo school for your "very scrappy" 5-year-old son who "has been getting into trouble for fighting at school."
4. Your desire to find records of taekwondo training you did 20 years ago, but training for which you can't recall key elements. With those issues in mind I'll reply to the post another way:

A. Not all ATA schools are bad. In fact many of them have instructors who are very good with very young children.
B. Taekwondo might not be the best thing for your son right now. Waiting one and a half to two years from now can make a very big difference in how he learns and retains taekwondo.
C. Did Grandmaster Kim issue you with Geup certficates. Most taekwondo schools issue geup certificates, but few keep long term records. I do. Why don't you call Grandmaster Kim? If you were a good or very bad student he might remember you.
D. Ideally if you want to train with your son, start from scratch and learn with him. It's what you know now that counts. Belts and certificates for taekwondo you don't know or remember mean nothing.
 

Tez3

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I take it personally because it's my kid and my character as a parent that was subtly being provoked and, frankly, no one asked for anyone's self righteous opinion. We were having a perfectly fine conversation here before hand.
Your posts also seemed overblown and devoid of logic, basically parroting talking points the other guy made for the sake of stirring up argument. That's why I had a problem with your first couple posts.
Anyway, I agree getting into tit for tat's on message boards is stupid and basically human behavior at it's lowest common denominator, so if it makes everyone happy just pretend I said my kid is 7 and never mentioned the bamboo paddle. I'll be happy to play along.

Your character as a parent was not being questioned. You have to understand those of us who take younger students get many parents coming in asking for 'discipline and respect' to be taught to their children, along with being asked if our hands are registered with the police as deadly weapons it's one of those questions that is facepalm worthy. We really do despair sometimes at parents.
The other thing we do here apart from discuss things is NOT make personal attacks on people. You agreed that when you signed up, if you don't like posts put the poster on ignore.
The other thing you have to understand is that most of us are instructors, are experienced and have a deep knowledge of martial arts, even if you don't like what they are saying they are saying it from experience. Arch's posts aren't 'self righteous' they come from knowledge as an instructor and someone who actually knows what he's talking about. the advice he gives is worth listening to and heeding. I know nothing of ATA TKD, we don't have it here but again I'd listen to people who do know.
 
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NikOnder

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Thanks. I admit perhaps I reacted to your posts with the assumption of ill intention, I will take ownership of that. On message boards it's not only hard to understand the tone of something that is being said, but there can also be an assumption that it is being said in an argumentative way (ever hang out on bullshido.net?). Put in the way done so above, I agree that those are valid points. I don't remember anything about Geup certificates specifically. I know we did get certificates, but there's no telling where they are or if I even still have them. I do agree calling might be a good idea, but given some of the other points made previously it may just not even be worth it.
I have apologized for sounding hard on the ATA. Like I said before, my only real problem with them is if he decides to pursue TKD more seriously when he gets older, or if I decide to join classes as well. If so, i'd rather not have to start over in a new association in order to have broader access to the competitive world. I hope that makes sense.
Also, my understanding is their programs can be significantly more costly (hence, my stating that is often geared towards suburban families, i.e. families with extra cash to burn).

If I sound a bit obsessive over little details, don't worry I realize that I do. I'll admit that I can be downright obsessive when it comes to stuff for my kids. I just want to be as educated as possible to give them the best opportunities and experience.
 

Tez3

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Thanks. I admit perhaps I reacted to your posts with the assumption of ill intention, I will take ownership of that. On message boards it's not only hard to understand the tone of something that is being said, but there can also be an assumption that it is being said in an argumentative way (ever hang out on bullshido.net?). Put in the way done so above, I agree that those are valid points. I don't remember anything about Geup certificates specifically. I know we did get certificates, but there's no telling where they are or if I even still have them. I do agree calling might be a good idea, but given some of the other points made previously it may just not even be worth it.
I have apologized for sounding hard on the ATA. Like I said before, my only real problem with them is if he decides to pursue TKD more seriously when he gets older, or if I decide to join classes as well. If so, i'd rather not have to start over in a new association in order to have broader access to the competitive world. I hope that makes sense.
Also, my understanding is their programs can be significantly more costly (hence, my stating that is often geared towards suburban families, i.e. families with extra cash to burn).

If I sound a bit obsessive over little details, don't worry I realize that I do. I'll admit that I can be downright obsessive when it comes to stuff for my kids. I just want to be as educated as possible to give them the best opportunities and experience.


Ah, no worries. You don't have to assume anything with my posts lol, I speak as I find...bluntly, something to do with living in Yorkshire I believe. This is an international site so your comments about suburban children goes over non American heads and comes out meaning something you obviously did not intend. I suppose we'd say middle class families here ( though in the UK what class you are has nothing to do with money but 'breeding' lol).

Wanting the best for your children is never a bad thing! I do and my eldest is 40 now! I would ask though if you are sure you want 'competitive' martial arts for your son? Many practise without ever competing. Competing isn't compulsory. Why not find a good fit for him, in a place he will learn regardless of the style and worry about competitions later. I would still say he's a little young for a stand up style but would suggest Judo/BJJ as a good starters if your son is a bit boisterous. When he's older take him to a karate/TKD school/club as well. Of course he may not like any of it or get fed up of it, young children do, it's normal. I do Guiding (it's Girl Scouts in the US) as well as martial arts and in both we tell parents never to buy uniforms etc for the first few weeks just to be sure their children like it before spending money.
 
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NikOnder

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Wanting the best for your children is never a bad thing! I do and my eldest is 40 now! I would ask though if you are sure you want 'competitive' martial arts for your son? Many practise without ever competing. Competing isn't compulsory. Why not find a good fit for him, in a place he will learn regardless of the style and worry about competitions later. I would still say he's a little young for a stand up style but would suggest Judo/BJJ as a good starters if your son is a bit boisterous. When he's older take him to a karate/TKD school/club as well. Of course he may not like any of it or get fed up of it, young children do, it's normal. I do Guiding (it's Girl Scouts in the US) as well as martial arts and in both we tell parents never to buy uniforms etc for the first few weeks just to be sure their children like it before spending money.

Well, I just want to keep it open ended. He may never pursue it that far, I just want to know I've laid the best foundation for him in the event that he should decide to down the road. I guess that's why I may seem nit-picky right now. Obviously, he's very young and that kind of thing would be many years from now.

Also, if it seems like I have a sense of urgency on the issue, that's because he starts kindergarten (not sure if you call it the same thing over there, basically first year in public school) coming up in August. We more or less had to pull him out of the preschool program he was in out of concern that he would eventually hurt one of the other kids. I was hoping getting him into a Martial Art might help him find a positive outlet and way to channel that energy that he has, with any luck before we unleash him on the public school system!
 
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