Can you help me confirm information regarding the association I trained in as a kid?

Archtkd

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Master Kim was an exceptional leader and I was extremely fond of him...
It may also just be a fact that back then it was a "different time", but I remember at least once or twice when Master Kim had to use the dreaded bamboo sword to paddle a kid in front of the class who just would not stop acting up and get his **** together, but we respected him to death and didn't fear him at all. It was definitely tough, but I feel like it was a genuine experience and I would rather impart a similarly genuine experience for my kid, rather than the sterile, suburbanite, "after-school-activity" that the ATA franchise around here seems to offer.
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Sorry, but I would never consider any taekwondo or martial arts teacher who hits children with a bamboo stick to be an "exceptional leader." That's an example of a teacher (especially if it was being done in the 1990s) who should be kept as far as possible from children. If a child acts up constantly in a dojang, there's an easy and reasonable remedy: kick out that child and let those who want to learn learn. Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?
 
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NikOnder

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What makes you think taekwondo or any martial art is what a 5-year-old kid should be doing as a serious thing?

I don't know, you tell me?
content_pics_why.jpg


Sorry, but I would never consider any taekwondo or martial arts teacher who hits children with a bamboo stick to be an "exceptional leader." That's an example of a teacher (especially if it was being done in the 1990s) who should be kept as far as possible from children. If a child acts up constantly in a dojang, there's an easy and reasonable remedy: kick out that child and let those who want to learn learn. Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?

Go easy with the hyperbole. The point I was making is that if I'm going to start him in a school and a program, it might as well be one that he can stick with for life. Not something catered to suburban kids that will earn him a B.S. black belt by 3rd grade, which he will have to start all over again to earn in the competitive world at large as an adult (should he chose to pursue it). It may not be a serious thing when he starts it at 5, but it certainly could evolve into a serious thing by the time he's progressed and aged, so why not start with that possibility in mind?

Also, if you had read the thread:

I should point out that the one or two times I saw my instructor paddle a student it was really just a light tap, not a full on beating. Obviously I don't want someone beating on my kid, but the point is about respect and discipline and being held accountable in front of your peers when you are out of line, as it affects everyone in the dojo. I'm wary of a place where the kids run the show rather than the instructors.
 

Tez3

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The point I was making is that if I'm going to start him in a school and a program, it might as well be one that he can stick with for life. Not something catered to suburban kids that will earn him a B.S. black belt by 3rd grade, which he will have to start all over again to earn in the competitive world at large as an adult (should he chose to pursue it). It may not be a serious thing when he starts it at 5, but it certainly could evolve into a serious thing by the time he's progressed and aged, so why not start with that possibility in mind?


I consider 5 to be too young to start martial arts, it's too young to be doing anything serious which learning martial arts should be because you are learning to hurt, maim and possibly kill people, that shouldn't ever be just a 'fun thing' for kids. I'd also take issue with the description of 'suburban kids' which somehow implies they are less worthy of being taught martial arts. I don't know what 3rd grade is, but children under 18 should only grade junior black belts and grade for an adult/senior one after 18. To be fair, many places use that system.
I have problems with people who say they want their children to learn discipline and respect by going to martial arts. Firstly, it's the parent's responsibility to teach this (amongst many other things) not martial arts instructors, our job is to teach martial arts. Secondly, most sports and activities require discipline and respect if one is too do them properly, martial arts isn't unique, it has just seemed to acquire an almost mystical reputation for 'teaching discipline' but you can as easily acquire that riding a horse, you certainly learn respect lol.
 

Balrog

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I have problems with people who say they want their children to learn discipline and respect by going to martial arts. Firstly, it's the parent's responsibility to teach this (amongst many other things) not martial arts instructors, our job is to teach martial arts.
I agree in principle, but it is astonishing how many parents bring their kids in because they want the kids to learn discipline and respect, and the parents don't know how to teach it to them. Since discipline and respect are cornerstones of m.a. training, I usually wind up getting the parents in class as well.
 

gpseymour

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I agree in principle, but it is astonishing how many parents bring their kids in because they want the kids to learn discipline and respect, and the parents don't know how to teach it to them. Since discipline and respect are cornerstones of m.a. training, I usually wind up getting the parents in class as well.
We (as a society) have an expectation of parents to deliver this learning, but many have (as you point out) no idea how to do so. So they seek someone who they think can help. I consider that a responsible choice (especially if they join the class and learn some from you, themselves).
 

gpseymour

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I consider 5 to be too young to start martial arts, it's too young to be doing anything serious which learning martial arts should be because you are learning to hurt, maim and possibly kill people, that shouldn't ever be just a 'fun thing' for kids. I'd also take issue with the description of 'suburban kids' which somehow implies they are less worthy of being taught martial arts. I don't know what 3rd grade is, but children under 18 should only grade junior black belts and grade for an adult/senior one after 18. To be fair, many places use that system.
I have problems with people who say they want their children to learn discipline and respect by going to martial arts. Firstly, it's the parent's responsibility to teach this (amongst many other things) not martial arts instructors, our job is to teach martial arts. Secondly, most sports and activities require discipline and respect if one is too do them properly, martial arts isn't unique, it has just seemed to acquire an almost mystical reputation for 'teaching discipline' but you can as easily acquire that riding a horse, you certainly learn respect lol.
I'm not a fan of kids that young taking MA, either. However, I've seen classes tailored to those ages, and none of them were actually teaching how to hurt, maim, and possibly kill, beyond the ability of a 5-year-old to hit. Most are focused on using MA movements to improve physical ability (like any sport) and helping develop patience, discipline, etc.
 

TrueJim

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I think most kids' sports (soccer, flag football, tee-ball, wrestling, gymnastics, martial arts, etc.) teach many good things in varying degrees: good sportsmanship, gross motor skills, balance, coordination, focus, discipline, respect, courtesy, etc. In any sport, if you're lucky enough to find a good coach, the coach is going to reinforce the lessons of courtesy, respect, focus, discipline, etc.

But of all kids sports, martial arts has some distinct advantages:
  • Most kids' sports are seasonal. Your kid gets that coach and those teammates for just 10 short weeks, then it's off to a different sport with different coaches and different teammates. Martial arts are year-round and so the experience has much better continuity...and continuity is important for these kinds of lessons.
  • Most kids' coaches are part-time volunteers. Martial arts has the advantage that the instructors generally do this for a living, so they tend to be better at it.
  • While all good coaches try to reinforce respect, discipline, etc., martial arts instructors usually make it a special point to do so.
 

gpseymour

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I think most kids' sports (soccer, flag football, tee-ball, wrestling, gymnastics, martial arts, etc.) teach many good things in varying degrees: good sportsmanship, gross motor skills, balance, coordination, focus, discipline, respect, courtesy, etc. In any sport, if you're lucky enough to find a good coach, the coach is going to reinforce the lessons of courtesy, respect, focus, discipline, etc.

But of all kids sports, martial arts has some distinct advantages:
  • Most kids' sports are seasonal. Your kid gets that coach and those teammates for just 10 short weeks, then it's off to a different sport with different coaches and different teammates. Martial arts are year-round and so the experience has much better continuity...and continuity is important for these kinds of lessons.
  • Most kids' coaches are part-time volunteers. Martial arts has the advantage that the instructors generally do this for a living, so they tend to be better at it.
  • While all good coaches try to reinforce respect, discipline, etc., martial arts instructors usually make it a special point to do so.
I agree with this. The closest comparisons I could come up with would be dance classes and gymnastics, both of which can be year-round and involve people for whom teaching is at least an avocation, if not their actual business. And both will help develop discipline and respect if taught in ways that require those things of the student. As you said, many MA instructors take special care to teach these concepts, so there's an advantage there (at least with those who are good at it).
 

Tez3

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I'm not a fan of kids that young taking MA, either. However, I've seen classes tailored to those ages, and none of them were actually teaching how to hurt, maim, and possibly kill, beyond the ability of a 5-year-old to hit. Most are focused on using MA movements to improve physical ability (like any sport) and helping develop patience, discipline, etc.

then it's not really martial arts in my opinion it's Tai Bo or Boxercise.

I think most kids' sports (soccer, flag football, tee-ball, wrestling, gymnastics, martial arts, etc.) teach many good things in varying degrees: good sportsmanship, gross motor skills, balance, coordination, focus, discipline, respect, courtesy, etc. In any sport, if you're lucky enough to find a good coach, the coach is going to reinforce the lessons of courtesy, respect, focus, discipline, etc.

But of all kids sports, martial arts has some distinct advantages:
  • Most kids' sports are seasonal. Your kid gets that coach and those teammates for just 10 short weeks, then it's off to a different sport with different coaches and different teammates. Martial arts are year-round and so the experience has much better continuity...and continuity is important for these kinds of lessons.
  • Most kids' coaches are part-time volunteers. Martial arts has the advantage that the instructors generally do this for a living, so they tend to be better at it.
  • While all good coaches try to reinforce respect, discipline, etc., martial arts instructors usually make it a special point to do so.

Here things are somewhat different, most martial arts coaches don't do it full time, they do it for love, most just cover costs not a wage. Some sports are seasonal but many actually train year round, children here don't tend to move from sport to sport in the way you describe. Our national sporting organisations ie Sport England/Scotland/Wales push strongly respect and discipline in all sports along with anti bullying and anti racist campaigns.
Respect in sport is actually part of the Physical Education GCSE ( national exams taken by secondary school children) http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/clips/zgy8q6f
 

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then it's not really martial arts in my opinion it's Tai Bo or Boxercise.
That's a distinction I struggle with, too. I've just come to accept that "martial arts" is a term most folks use to include related activities that aren't really designed to teach combat effectiveness.

Here things are somewhat different, most martial arts coaches don't do it full time, they do it for love, most just cover costs not a wage. Some sports are seasonal but many actually train year round, children here don't tend to move from sport to sport in the way you describe. Our national sporting organisations ie Sport England/Scotland/Wales push strongly respect and discipline in all sports along with anti bullying and anti racist campaigns.
Respect in sport is actually part of the Physical Education GCSE ( national exams taken by secondary school children) BBC Bitesize - GCSE Physical Education - Respecting yourself and others in sport
I'd like to see more sports organizations push respect as a part of what they do. I know a lot of folks who played sports in high school got similar benefits, where they had coaches who demanded discipline and expected respect where earned.

I'm one of those part-time folks like you talk about. But even folks like me differ from what many kids run into in sports here. Many times the coaches in kids' sporting leagues are volunteers. They may not even know a lot about the sport (I've had to explain some of the rules of soccer to coaches), and certainly aren't doing it enough to build in a purposeful focus on respect, nor to ensure kids are developing proper discipline. At least in the MA, the instructors tend to be people who are doing that for many years, so they have the opportunity to hone those parts of the curriculum. The same, of course, can be said of sports coaches with similar longevity.
 

Tez3

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Many times the coaches in kids' sporting leagues are volunteers. They may not even know a lot about the sport (I've had to explain some of the rules of soccer to coaches), and certainly aren't doing it enough to build in a purposeful focus on respect, nor to ensure kids are developing proper discipline. At least in the MA, the instructors tend to be people who are doing that for many years, so they have the opportunity to hone those parts of the curriculum. The same, of course, can be said of sports coaches with similar longevity.

Sports coaches here have to be qualified to at least basic level one sports coach and pass police vetting, it doesn't matter whether they are volunteers or professionals. Parents also expect coaches to be qualified, all sports now require coaching qualifications and many offer courses. Minimum Standards for Active Coaches of Children and Young People - Additional Guidance Tool | sports coach UK
This wasn't always the case and the chickens are coming home to roost as it were. We now have 17 police forces currently investigating hundreds of paedophile abuse cases perpetrated by football ( soccer) coaches many years ago. It's horrendous. Hundreds report football child abuse to police - BBC News
 

gpseymour

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Sports coaches here have to be qualified to at least basic level one sports coach and pass police vetting, it doesn't matter whether they are volunteers or professionals. Parents also expect coaches to be qualified, all sports now require coaching qualifications and many offer courses. Minimum Standards for Active Coaches of Children and Young People - Additional Guidance Tool | sports coach UK
This wasn't always the case and the chickens are coming home to roost as it were. We now have 17 police forces currently investigating hundreds of paedophile abuse cases perpetrated by football ( soccer) coaches many years ago. It's horrendous. Hundreds report football child abuse to police - BBC News
Maybe not a bad standard. At present, not the practice in the US.
 

Tez3

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Maybe not a bad standard. At present, not the practice in the US.

There is a code of ethics as well.... 'The Code of Ethics and Conduct for Sports Coaches has been developed by the National Foundation for the Code of Ethics which was published by the British Institute of Sports Coaches (BISC).' This comes from the EU direction https://www.coe.int/t/dg4/epas/resources/texts/Rec(92)14rev_en.pdf.
There is also EU regulations of child safety which covers sports. http://www.childsafetyeurope.org/publications/info/child-safety-regulations-standards.pdf

Many will probably think we have a lot of law covering children's sports etc but as the child abuse investigations show, you really need to keep children safe.
 

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In the US, if you're going to coach in youth leagues, you usually have to register with the league so that they can do a basic criminal background check...again, for the child safety aspect.

There's no check to make sure that you can coach well though. Some leagues do offer some minimal coaching instruction.

I think I learned a lot about coaching by being an instructor at our tkd school. Instructing in tkd exposed me to a lot of good physical-training drills that translate well to other sports, and taught me a lot about how to motivate kids (including difficult kids).

Re: definition of martial art - my personal opinion is that the best definition is that martial arts are activities that were historically used for combat, even if they're not used for combat nowadays.
 

Tez3

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Re: definition of martial art - my personal opinion is that the best definition is that martial arts are activities that were historically used for combat, even if they're not used for combat nowadays.

I'd add on the end of that....... 'and bear some resemblance to combat at least.' :D
 

Archtkd

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Hyperbole? Those are 7 year-old kids and up in that photo you've shown in that photo.
I don't know, you tell me?
content_pics_why.jpg




Go easy with the hyperbole. The point I was making is that if I'm going to start him in a school and a program, it might as well be one that he can stick with for life. Not something catered to suburban kids that will earn him a B.S. black belt by 3rd grade, which he will have to start all over again to earn in the competitive world at large as an adult (should he chose to pursue it). It may not be a serious thing when he starts it at 5, but it certainly could evolve into a serious thing by the time he's progressed and aged, so why not start with that possibility in mind?

Also, if you had read the thread:
Hyperbole? I just asked you as simple question? Why do you think he is ready for taekwondo at 5 years old? None of the the kids you show in that photo are less than 7.
 
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Archtkd

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I interpreted the OP to mean that he wanted to teach the child discipline and respect...not that he wanted to make him a better fighter. :)
Who talked about fighting? Learning respect and getting discipline requires some things a 5 year old might not possess.
 
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Archtkd

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How is asking whether a 5-year-old might be too young for taekwondo classes hyperbole? How is questioning the beating of child by a taekwondo teacher hyperbole? Why would you accept such beating to be an example of how to teach something to a child, especially if it's not something the child should take seriously? How does posting the picture of kids who are seven years and up answer those simple questions about a five year old? Hyperbole, according to the Oxford English dictionary means, "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally." How does my post conform to that definition?
 
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