Can you change Fate?

[Jenna]

I've had the same experience which is why I asked. Hence, my statement in the OP:

(and no jokes about how lame it is to quote yourself)

I also find certain "themes" to run in my life. A series of repeated circumstances that are completely out of my control but always revolve around the same issues.

Hey JT my intriguing friend see now that is another interesting idea from you.. the repetition of "themes" and I also look at your little signature about slinkies and I wonder is there a sort of spring that would pull us back over and over to a "theme" or scenario .. but that generates twofold issues.. 1). is fate intelligent or are we referring to fate when we should be referring to God (in whatever form you believe) .. the old testament being specifically adamant that the faithful should NOT worship the gods of luck and fate eg. Isiah 65:11 where Troop is that very god.. and 2). why are some of us continually and incessantly sprung back to the same theme.. that is kind of akin to the karmic payback notions.. or maybe "fate" is training us up for something, ha!

Personally I think fate is a fallback which we call up to attribute blame to for our own failures either of poor planning or lacking foresight or inability to accept the truly chaotic randomness of events. I do not believe in fate.. though predetermination does pose a number of seemingly unanswerable questions like could I opt out of predetermination by either doing nothing or by a decent hara kiri or would that be wholly engulfed by my personal predetermination.. ie... yeah we knew you were gonna do that do yourself.. Too many questions and not enough answers.. always the way I spose..

Your thoughts are very interesting JT .. I would be fascinated to know bout the repetitive themes if that was not too personal.. I too have been subject to these same..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[jetboatdeath]

Fate to me is an excuse.
I crashed my car into a tree must have been fate.
No it was the fact that you were not watching the road.
Sure it seems simple and maybe silly but most excesses are.
What I am saying is that it is easier to blame fate than yourself

 

[Cryozombie]

Fate to me is an excuse.
I crashed my car into a tree must have been fate.
No it was the fact that you were not watching the road.
Sure it seems simple and maybe silly but most excesses are.
What I am saying is that it is easier to blame fate than yourself

So when your company isnt doing well, and decide to cut your department, and you lose your job, thats a choice or decision you made?

When your loved ones die... its your fault for loving them.

There are so many things outside the realm of our control that happen to us...

 

[jetboatdeath]

If your company is not doing well and you loose your job it’s not fate it’s economics.
And yea it is some what your choice. You could look for another job as the signs are there that the company is in trouble.
I face the same thing in my job; they let two managers go in my department. Not a good sign but I choose not to look for a new job even though I know more cuts are coming.
Fate has nothing to do with love.

Yea there are many things that happen to us that we can’t control, but they are not fate.
Driving home tonight I could get hit by another car. Is it my fault no, but there is a reason that it happened not fate.

Why don’t people ever say fate made me the CEO of so and so company? Fate is always used to describe the bad things that happen. Hard work, daddy having a bank roll, good education things like that makes you a CEO.

I’m **** poor. Is it fate that keeps me poor nope, it’s my spending habits. I have a lot of cool stuff but no money.

 

[Gemini]

So when your company isnt doing well, and decide to cut your department, and you lose your job, thats a choice or decision you made?

When your loved ones die... its your fault for loving them.

There are so many things outside the realm of our control that happen to us...

Do we not all love someone? Do we not all die? It is inevitable someone will suffer with the passing. But how you react to it is your choice. I'm not referring to your inital reaction. I'm referring to your long term one. Things happen out of the realm of our control everyday. Reset your base point and set your destination. I'm in no way belittling your point. The pain of such things can be intolerable. But it isn't fate.

 

[Cryozombie]

Is it fate that keeps me poor

No its your wife.

 

[mrhnau]

I don't think so... in retrospect, one can always say it was fate. That is really the only way to observe fate in my opinion... you lose your job, it was fate. keep it, it was fate... Is fate simply a way of not having to face responsibility for the decisions we make or the life choices presented to us?

 

[Elayna]

I do agree that the concept of something like Fate is a huge one. We will never know if we are right or wrong, because the only time you will know is if !. you talk to God and live through it, or 2. You die.For me I guess the point is...I believe that you can change that around you. You cant change every person everywhere, but you can change things. And, if you have enough gumption you could change something that will change this world forever. Just like the wonderful people who gave us America, civil rights, and women rights. Just to list a few. Now some could say this is Fate, but again I dont know. I choose to believe in a little bit of both. That i have a choice of what I do, but that there is still someone looking down, nudging me in the right directions so I dont go and tottaly screw up my life. And all that I can hope for is that I am a person that makes a difference to someone. May it be my son, my husband, or the whole world...who knows.Human emotions cant be changed, but human reactions can.BTW...How many flowers should I have on my rioting sign for tomorrow?? LOL LOL. TTYL

 

[Jade Tigress]

A clarification. When I use the term fate, I am not talking about God. I am a Christian and I believe in God. I am talking about the ability to fight your way out of your lot in life. Can you really change it? Or are we destined to a path that will make our attempts at changing our lives fail or succeed? What if you keep trying your best at something and find, as Jenna pointed out about slinkies and springs, that no matter how hard you try, you are constantly sprung back to your place.

And what about "themes" in our lives that occur again and again outside of our control. And I'm not referring to financial issues, or classes, though for some that might apply.

For example, let's say as a child, your mother or father was an alcoholic. You vow never to become one yourself or have anything to do with alcohol. Then as you grow up, you find person after person enters your life with alcohol problems. Say your best friend grows up to be an alcoholic. You can't control them. You didn't choose them as your best friend in 3rd grade or whatever knowing they would become an alcoholic when they grew up. Say your cousin was hit by a drunk driver and your child begins drinking at a young age. Say you find out your spouse, whom you thought was a teetotaler upon marrying hides a secret addiction.

None of those things are in your control. But no matter what you do, you cannot seem to get out of your life being touched by alcohol abuse. You may even start to drink yourself just because of the stress of it all. Telling yourself if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

So on one hand, you made that decision. On the other hand, was your fate in life to become an alcoholic yourself, or to have a life affected by alcohol in some way, shape, or form?

This is not my own experience, and may not be the best example, but it was the only parellel I could think of this morning to try and make my point about "themes"

Jenna - I would be happy to share more with you. Shoot me a PM or e-mail.

 

[Gemini]

I think we all have paths that are easier to walk, (gullies, if you will) but untimately, it's our own decision on whether or not we walk these paths. Some will say, this is the only path, while others will say it's not the path I'm going to take and continue to change it. Will you always succeed? No. But you won't always fail either. How bad do you want it? What are you willing to do to change it. You analogy itself shows the ability for one to make choices. We always have them. Sometimes the choices are between bad and worse, but they're there none the less. For myself, I've had wins and losses just like everyone else. I've made some poor choices and I've made some good ones. But they were always mine. Fate, in my mind, is the explanation one gives to ones self when they get tired of trying. Our courses change and are impacted from outside sources all throughout our lifes. But ultimately it's you who must decide if your going to steer the ship or ride the tide. I've had times in my life that I've given up. But I've never looked for another explanation than what it was. Me, not fate.

 

[hemi]

Well this is a topic I haven’t put much thought into but here is my take on fate and destiny. Since God ultimately has a mission or reason for each of us being here you will at some point fulfill the mission God placed you here to partake. But Since God is omnipresent (What a concept) to be every where and in every time line across every dimension as others have said before me God knows what has happened and what will happen but this can be changed through prayer. Also God has given us free will so that is where I think fate plays a part in our lives. Yes each of us will do what it ultimately required of us by God but the path we take in doing so seems to be for the most part up to us. I think that every choice we make on the surface looks like a simple this or that, or even yes or no. But every choice we make has long reaching consequences. Take for instance the choice to have kids or not, to continue your education and get a degree or not. Enter the door on the left or the door on the right. Every choice leads to a different road with ultimately one outcome in the end.

 

[Bigshadow]

This is not my own experience, and may not be the best example, but it was the only parellel I could think of this morning to try and make my point about "themes"

Or how about the son who's father never was around when he was growing up and when he was, never wanted his son around and would scold him and send him away for just wanting to sit and watch father. As far back as the son can remember he had no quality time with his father. As this son grew older without any guidance or attention from his father, he swore he would never be like his father.

Years later when his son was born, keeping his promise to himself, he forced himself to not be like his father. By not having a father role model in his life it was difficult, and at times he feared he was too much like his father. Through courage, perseverence, and support from his family he didn't turn out like his father, he is a positive role model for his son; He broke the cycle and now his son won't have to deal with that legacy.

:asian:

 

[Jade Tigress]

Or how about the son who's father never was around when he was growing up and when he was, never wanted his son around and would scold him and send him away for just wanting to sit and watch father. As far back as the son can remember he had no quality time with his father. As this son grew older without any guidance or attention from his father, he swore he would never be like his father.

Years later when his son was born, keeping his promise to himself, he forced himself to not be like his father. By not having a father role model in his life it was difficult, and at times he feared he was too much like his father. Through courage, perseverence, and support from his family he didn't turn out like his father, he is a positive role model for his son; He broke the cycle and now his son won't have to deal with that legacy.

:asian:

Good analogy. Was it the man's *fate* to be the one who breaks the cycle of abandonment?

Or what if even though he broke the cycle for his son, what if his life consisted of other people constantly abandoning him in various situations? No matter how hard he tries, no matter how careful he is with trust, people keep abandoning him. What if as he's growing up the people he thought were his friends ditch him all the time, as an adult the company he works for moves and does not have need for him to transfer, not to mention his friends constantly get together and forget to call him. Then, in spite of his overcoming all of these trials, and through hard work and determinatioin not to be that kind of person, thereby giving his son the stability he never had, alas, his wife leaves him.

Was it his fate to live a life of abandonment?

What about this one?

Suppose a young girl is molested by her father and no one ever finds out about it. Suppose she is also molested by a neighbor, and no one ever finds out about it. Then as she becomes a teenager, she is raped by a stranger. Then as an adult perhaps raped by a date, whom she may have known for some time and trusted to go out with. Then say she falls in love with someone who makes her feel safe and loved. She trusts him completely and all is well, until their child is born. At which point the child is molested by the father. This time the mother finds out about it and is shattered.

Is it the woman's *fate* that she will forever be followed in life by occurances of sexual abuse, all of which were out of her control?

She can make a choice now. She can now divorce her husband. But the damage to her child has already been done. It just seems like sexual abuses follow her wherever she goes.


This is what I mean by a theme. It's things that follow YOU, no matter how hard you try, and no matter how much you can change things for the next person, you feel destined to a life of alcoholism, abandonment, sexual abuse, or whatever the situation may be, and no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try to change things, it just never seems to happen and the same theme haunts you your entire life.

 

[Bigshadow]

This is what I mean by a theme. It's things that follow YOU, no matter how hard you try, and no matter how much you can change things for the next person, you feel destined to a life of alcoholism, abandonment, sexual abuse, or whatever the situation may be, and no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try to change things, it just never seems to happen and the same theme haunts you your entire life.

I understand what you are saying...

 

[hemi]

This is what I mean by a theme. It's things that follow YOU, no matter how hard you try, and no matter how much you can change things for the next person, you feel destined to a life of alcoholism, abandonment, sexual abuse, or whatever the situation may be, and no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try to change things, it just never seems to happen and the same theme haunts you your entire life.

Looking at this last part of what you wrote, I think one would have to be careful in this kind of thinking. What I mean by that I’ll use myself as an example. First a little history on me. I face certain challenges in my life that have plagued me my entire life. I have terrible penmanship, I am horrible at spelling, and math kills me. This is not due to fate, nor is it my destiny to never be good at spelling, or to improve my handwriting. I have a learning disability called Dyslexia. Back when I was in hell or as most people call it High School at that time schools and most teachers had no idea what Dyslexia was or how to teach kids with this problem. I was just labeled as stupid, and pretty much ignored by teacher after teacher and passed to the next grade so I could become someone else’s problem. As time or I should say years went by I found my self as a SR. in a freshmen algebra class. I looked at one of the problems and didn’t know what 2. 3 was so I raised my hand. The teacher asked what I wanted and I asked what is the ( . )? Well everyone in the class busted out laughing since they thought I was giving the teacher a hard time. At that point I was sent to the office and was written up. When I finally did talk to the principle I explained what happened and he gave me detention and told to go back to class. As I was leaving the principles office I told him “ I still do not know that the dot was” I think it was then that he realized I was not screwing around but reaching for a hand and getting slapped in the face.

Sorry I went way off topic but I wanted to give the reader a little insight into some of what I faced in growing up and to help get my point across in what I am about to write. Since I have had, and do have a hard time learning things (Kenpo) included I have to work real hard to retain information I am given. I have learned to deal with this fact and not take the easy road and say “I give up it’s my fate or destiny to just be this way. Some things can be overcome with enough determination. I was told back in the day I could be exempt from the TAAS test that TX students had to pass to graduate high school. Well I was unwilling to accept that. I worked real hard my entire senior year after school and passed all three parts of the test. I could have taken the easy road but I worked and improved my reading, math and reading comprehension.

When you talk about some one being abused as a kid, then entering an abusive relation ship as an adult. That also would not be fate; I think that a person most probably has mental issues that need to be worked out. The scars people receive as children re surface to cause like tendencies as adults. I am not a shrink but after reading books, and seeing enough shrinks as a kid, myself that seems to be the running theme in medical social circles.

Another instance would be since I do not have a degree “per all the media” I am doomed to never make what some one with a degree could make. On TV and radio they throw out all these numbers that the Have will make Vs the Have knot’s.
One could easily say it’s my fate to never really make a good living since I am not degreed. But there again it comes down to choice if I would make the choice to work very hard and take all the remedial class I would be forced to take to gain entry into a college. I could attain a degree there by proving it is not fate but choice that determines many factors in life.

But again that is just the opinion of an old dyslexic Redneck.

 

[mantis]

Fate? What a depressing concept, no thanks, I prefer self-determination.

Lamont

Hey, just a thought for you. Last night I experienced serious pain in the lower part of my stomach and I felt a lump or a little tumor you can say (with other symptoms that are similar to testicular cancer). I am only 24 years old. I want you to tell me what it means to "prefer self-determination" if this tumor was cancerous!
I had this thought as soon as i felt the tumor. I said I want to see what this guy would say if he experienced the same.

That, my friend, is fate!

 

[Blindside]

Hey, just a thought for you. Last night I experienced serious pain in the lower part of my stomach and I felt a lump or a little tumor you can say (with other symptoms that are similar to testicular cancer). I am only 24 years old. I want you to tell me what it means to "prefer self-determination" if this tumor was cancerous!
I had this thought as soon as i felt the tumor. I said I want to see what this guy would say if he experienced the same.

That, my friend, is fate!

Fate tends to imply that there is some guiding force or reason behind an event in your life. I do not consider it "fate" that you, me, or my wife are going to die. Everyone dies, the hows and whys might be different, but you are implying that there is some reason behind death. The term "fate" comes from the old gods, are you saying the reason behind a possible cancer is that Lachesis measured your thread that long? By self-determination I am saying that I have some measure of control over my life, that there is no magical influence that pushes me in certain directions. Can random stuff happen to us that we have absolutely no control over? Yup, but is THAT fate? Nope, it is just random events.

I'm sorry about your (possible) condition, but do you believe that some outside force caused it? That god caused this to happen to teach you some lesson?

Lamont

 

[mantis]

Fate tends to imply that there is some guiding force or reason behind an event in your life. I do not consider it "fate" that you, me, or my wife are going to die. Everyone dies, the hows and whys might be different, but you are implying that there is some reason behind death. The term "fate" comes from the old gods, are you saying the reason behind a possible cancer is that Lachesis measured your thread that long? By self-determination I am saying that I have some measure of control over my life, that there is no magical influence that pushes me in certain directions. Can random stuff happen to us that we have absolutely no control over? Yup, but is THAT fate? Nope, it is just random events.

I'm sorry about your (possible) condition, but do you believe that some outside force caused it? That god caused this to happen to teach you some lesson?

Lamont

maybe that's what im saying, or maybe not. but what i wanted to say is there is no such thing as "i control my destiny". Humans can get really arrogant but in reality they are extremely weak. A small little germ can put a human in bed for so long, maybe for the human's entire life.
Whether you believe it's from 'nature' or from God that's up to you, but it is still 'fate' that you have no control over it no matter how smart or strong you think you are.

Fate is not necessarily a 'magical' thing. Waking up at 5:03 am in the morning to jog while your neighbor happens to be pulling out going to work at the same moment and hit you with his car is not a magical thing. But fate is an arrangement of natural events that result in something out of your control and affect you directly. Religious people will tell you that since everything in nature is controlled by God then this sequence or arrangement of events is also controlled by God.

 

[Blindside]

maybe that's what im saying, or maybe not. but what i wanted to say is there is no such thing as "i control my destiny". Humans can get really arrogant but in reality they are extremely weak. A small little germ can put a human in bed for so long, maybe for the human's entire life.
Whether you believe it's from 'nature' or from God that's up to you, but it is still 'fate' that you have no control over it no matter how smart or strong you think you are.

Fate is not necessarily a 'magical' thing. Waking up at 5:03 am in the morning to jog while your neighbor happens to be pulling out going to work at the same moment and hit you with his car is not a magical thing. But fate is an arrangement of natural events that result in something out of your control and affect you directly. Religious people will tell you that since everything in nature is controlled by God then this sequence or arrangement of events is also controlled by God.

But why term the events that happen to you as "fate." Again, that term implies a destiny. Perhaps I should rephrase my initial statement to something like:

"What happens to a person in their life is the net result of some combination of their choices and the random **** that happens to them."

 

[mantis]

But why term the events that happen to you as "fate." Again, that term implies a destiny. Perhaps I should rephrase my initial statement to something like:

"What happens to a person in their life is the net result of some combination of their choices and the random **** that happens to them."

because to people of faith those events are predetermined. I'll say you're right if you say not everyone has a faith. Got your point.