Can MMA really be thought of as a martial art?

[Holmejr]

The following page has some points worth consideration when defining and understanding the terms martial art:

Welcome to Our Martial Arts Blog

We welcome our readers to our newest adventure – a blog about martial arts. Learn more about martial arts and the blog itself here.

www.24fightingchickens.com

Here are two paragraphs which caught my attention:

1) Let’s start off by dissecting the term “martial art”. Martial is something relating to war and it comes from the name Mars, given to the Roman god of war. The term “martial art” emerged around the 14th century to describe European fighting arts, now known as Historical European martial arts.

2) Every martial art you can find is not simply a system of techniques and their application, but a philosophy to live by. You cannot ignore the moral teachings of the creators and the masters if you ever want to perfect a martial art; there is no martial art without them.

That goes back to the philosophical question of another thread as to whether MA’s would be better off with or without the philosophies attached. As a Christian, I could absolutely care less about the original philosophy of a particular MA, including my own. My GM, who created the style that I’m involved in was, by all intents and purposes an agnostic at best. I believe philosophy can be part of a MA, but shouldn’t define whether it is a MA or not. The MMA philosophy, depending on the individual is to win in the ring and not if it balances with the universe. Maybe.

 

[drop bear]

That's kind of my point. If MMA were to be codified into one art, then give it a formal name like Taekwondo has.

Kung fu is basically mma linguistically

 

[Taiji Rebel]

That goes back to the philosophical questionas to whether MA’s would be better off with or without the philosophies attached. As a Christian, I could absolutely care less about the original philosophy of a particular MA, including my own. My GM, who created the style that I’m involved in was, by all intents and purposes an agnostic at best. I believe philosophy can be part of a MA, but shouldn’t define whether it is a MA or not.

Each of us has our own reasons for training. It is stimulating to discuss different ideas with one another. Since beginning this thread I have learned a lot about MMA, the members of this forum and myself. Each day is an opportunity to grow and evolve. There are many reasons to train in MA and the responses here illustrate this clearly.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Kung fu is basically mma linguistically

Isn't kung fu a phrase which basically means 'hard work'?

 

[Hot Lunch]

The following page has some points worth consideration when defining and understanding the terms martial art:

Welcome to Our Martial Arts Blog

We welcome our readers to our newest adventure – a blog about martial arts. Learn more about martial arts and the blog itself here.

www.24fightingchickens.com

Here are two paragraphs which caught my attention:

1) Let’s start off by dissecting the term “martial art”. Martial is something relating to war and it comes from the name Mars, given to the Roman god of war. The term “martial art” emerged around the 14th century to describe European fighting arts, now known as Historical European martial arts.

2) Every martial art you can find is not simply a system of techniques and their application, but a philosophy to live by. You cannot ignore the moral teachings of the creators and the masters if you ever want to perfect a martial art; there is no martial art without them.

Other than responsible and ethical use of the techniques, #2 as a prerequisite could cause a problem for most martial arts.

For example, before the "karate-do" of today, "toudi" in Okinawa prior the Japanese annexation of the Ryukyu Kingdom didn't have that. Which means we wouldn't be able to say that toudi was a martial art. Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo likely only have it because they inherited it from Shotokan. I've visited judo and BJJ dojos, and noticed that it isn't much of a thing there either.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Personally, I think MMA is so well developed as a martial art that it has spawned as many substyles as Karate or TKD

I see this as what would naturally happen if you spar outside your system. Karate rules and TKD rules are for system A vs sytem A competition. This is where most people train. Spar outside of one's system means the context changes and now the application grows.

Sweep a TKD guy enough times will change how he does his kicks

Is San Shou a martial art? They learn take downs, but not ground submissions. Are they learning bits and pieces of shiu jiaio or judo?

Based on the history of San Shou, this question is confusing to me. China developed their own grappling system. Why would you ask if they learn bits and pieces of Judo?

It's not clear to me what you are asking or trying to state.

 

[JowGaWolf]

. On one hand, you are saying that if there is no foundation, then they would be learning something totally different

How can you build a fighting system without a foundation to build upon?

If your mixed martial arts choices are boxing and Aikido. And mine are Bjj ang wrestling then how can these both be MMA system when the both don't have the same foundation an principals. It would be like me calling an apple and an orange the same fruit simply because the are in the same bowl.

I'll take his word for it.

Ha ha ha. Either the horse is dead or you like to have ammo in the form of their own words.

 

[drop bear]

Isn't kung fu a phrase which basically means 'hard work'?

Something like that. A generic I'll fitting term for martial arts that we have just accepted in to our language.

 

[MetalBoar]

We're in an interesting semantic place here.

If somebody is doing MMA, of whatever flavor, my opinion would be that they are doing a martial art. If someone asked me if MMA is a martial art I'd have a much harder time. I would easily say that I saw it as falling within the overarching class, or set, of "martial arts", but I'm not sure if it seems homogenous enough to me at this stage to be called a unique "martial art" (as a specific style unto itself). I'd have to ask for their definition.

There seems to be more variation in what constitutes MMA than what constitutes TKD, for example. A lot of MMA has boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ as core components, but some schools it's kickboxing (or Muay Thai) and folk wrestling, with some extra sauce on top. At one local school, it's Wing Chun, Savate, Kenpo, and Catch Wrestling. I think the more a school trains for a specific ruleset, the more it will look like other schools training for that ruleset. Have we reached a point where MMA schools are more similar than they are different, or as similar as TKD schools tend to be? If so, then I might label it as a martial art. If not then I might say it's a category of martial of martial arts, more like karate means the collection of martial arts that have some ties, often historical, to traditional Okinawan fighting arts, or kung fu, which is a name for CMA as a whole.

To clarify, if we were having a discussion about semantics, as we are here, if someone asked me if kung fu is a martial art, I'd say that I look at kung fu as a broad label for all the CMA's and that I didn't think of it as a martial art unto itself. I'm not sure whether I see MMA as a category of martial arts or as a martial art. Overall, I don't think it's important. MMA schools teach fighting skills, and largely teach what they claim to teach (leaving some room for debate in regards to self defense). Does it matter if MMA "is" a martial art in some sense?

A much more interesting question is what is MMA really good at/for? What are the limitations and drawbacks to MMA training? How can MMA be applied to self defense, personal development, fitness, and/or (fill in the blank desire for martial arts training)? Things like this. I think it's valid to say that MMA doesn't work for you or is missing elements you find important, but I'm not clear on how it matters whether it "is" a martial art or not.

 

[drop bear]

How can you build a fighting system without a foundation to build upon?

If your mixed martial arts choices are boxing and Aikido. And mine are Bjj ang wrestling then how can these both be MMA system when the both don't have the same foundation an principals. It would be like me calling an apple and an orange the same fruit simply because the are in the same bowl.


Ha ha ha. Either the horse is dead or you like to have ammo in the form of their own words.

Apple
Orange
Fruit.


Think about it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

On the other hand, when it comes to MMA, where even though they aren't learning something totally different, there is no shared foundation?

What are the fighting foundations and principles of the MMA Fighting System. What are the martial arts that make up a MMA Fighting system? Give me the name of an MMA Fighting system.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How can you build a fighting system without a foundation to build upon?

This is why you don't see "hip throw" (the mother of all throws) used often in MMA. Without a wrestling art foundation, a striker cannot develop the hip throw skill from the thin air.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If someone tells you that they're an MMA fighter, you're going to ask what arts they trained in. If their answer is "MMA," then a real life Abbott and Costello situation is about to happen.

The guy that I trained with told me the names of systems that he trained and that TKD was his foundation but he enjoys BJJ. He knew where his techniques came from.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That goes back to the philosophical question of another thread as to whether MA’s would be better off with or without the philosophies attached. As a Christian, I could absolutely care less about the original philosophy of a particular MA, including my own. My GM, who created the style that I’m involved in was, by all intents and purposes an agnostic at best. I believe philosophy can be part of a MA, but shouldn’t define whether it is a MA or not. The MMA philosophy, depending on the individual is to win in the ring and not if it balances with the universe. Maybe.

Your definition or perspective of what Philosophy may be different than how someone else sees it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Apple
Orange
Fruit.


Think about it.

Apple is a fruit
Orange is a fruit
These are the same in the context of talking about what is a fruit. They are not the same.

Bjj is a fighting system
Kung Fu is a fighting stem
These are the same in the context of talking about what is a fighting system. They are not the same fighting system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Let's say that I sign up to compete in MMA competition.

The martial arts that I train is Jow Ga Kung Fu. I train in an MMA gym, I train Grappling, but everything I do is Jow Ga Kung Fu

Do I train MMA fighting system? Jow Ga Kung Fu is made of 3 different fighting systems, so by the definitions of "Mixed Martial Arts" Jow Ga Kung Fu qualifies as a Mixed Martial Arts System.

Now when I do my forms and someone asks "what is that you are doing" Do I say I'm doing MMA or do I say I do Jow Ga Kung Fu.? Technically by the definition of MMA, I could honestly say that I train in MMA. But I have a feeling that there are many who won't see it that way. Even if I trained in the gym using Jow Ga Kung Fu techniques no one that I know is going to say that it's MMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is why you don't see "hip throw" (the mother of all throws) used often in MMA. Without a wrestling art foundation, a striker cannot develop the hip throw skill from the thin air.

I finally found some MMA Foundations. This one she calls Boxing stance and not an MMA stance.

 

[Steve]

I see this as what would naturally happen if you spar outside your system. Karate rules and TKD rules are for system A vs sytem A competition. This is where most people train. Spar outside of one's system means the context changes and now the application grows.

Sweep a TKD guy enough times will change how he does his kicks

Based on the history of San Shou, this question is confusing to me. China developed their own grappling system. Why would you ask if they learn bits and pieces of Judo?

Or shiu Jiaio, the other thing I mentioned?

It's not clear to me what you are asking or trying to state.

Look man, I think you're going in circles and saying things that are mutually exclusive. I don't think I'm going to be able to help you. It's okay if you don't understand it. Let's call it a day and enjoy our weekend.

How can you build a fighting system without a foundation to build upon?

Why are you asking me this?

If your mixed martial arts choices are boxing and Aikido. And mine are Bjj ang wrestling then how can these both be MMA system when the both don't have the same foundation an principals. It would be like me calling an apple and an orange the same fruit simply because the are in the same bowl.

You're sidestepping the questions I asked and talking in circles.

Ha ha ha. Either the horse is dead or you like to have ammo in the form of their own words.

I don't know what you mean by this.

Apple is a fruit
Orange is a fruit
These are the same in the context of talking about what is a fruit. They are not the same.

Bjj is a fighting system
Kung Fu is a fighting stem
These are the same in the context of talking about what is a fighting system. They are not the same fighting system.

Kung fu is a generic term... isn't it? How is kung fu a martial art and MMA isn't when there are so many different types of kung fu? How is karate a martial art and MMA isn't, when there are so many different types of karate?
How is boxing a martial art and MMA isn't, when there are so many different types of boxing?
and so on...

What are the fighting foundations and principles of the MMA Fighting System. What are the martial arts that make up a MMA Fighting system? Give me the name of an MMA Fighting system.

I've shared several already. Serious question. Are you reading or skimming the posts? Feels a little like the latter. Go back and reread the thread, and then we'll pick up where we left off. Or don't. I honestly don't expect you will.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Kung fu is a generic term... isn't it? How is kung fu a martial art and MMA isn't when there are so many different types of kung fu? How is karate a martial art and MMA isn't, when there are so many different types of karate?
How is boxing a martial art and MMA isn't, when there are so many different types of boxing?
and so on...

That should have been Jow Ga Kung Fu is a fighting system. I was typing on my phone.

 

[drop bear]

Apple is a fruit
Orange is a fruit
These are the same in the context of talking about what is a fruit. They are not the same.

Bjj is a fighting system
Kung Fu is a fighting stem
These are the same in the context of talking about what is a fighting system. They are not the same fighting system.

Bjj is not the same fighting system.