Can it be an Art without Kata?

[girlbug2]

One year plus into Krav Maga, looking back on my years in EPAK, I find myself missing the katas very much. I loved their grace and style. By contrast, Krav is all about practicality; there is no kata. I can tell that many of the movements and technique sequences are shamelessly cribbed from karate. But, looking hard at what I have learned, I see much in the way of logic and science but little in the way of Art.

By that same token, a few other martial arts also lack kata--boxing, firearms, BJJ; can we justifiably call any of them "Arts"? Is kata the ingredient that transforms something from a fighting system into an art, or is there some other essential that I'm missing?

What's your opinion on what makes something a martial Art?

 

[clfsean]

Kata/Dalu/Hyung/Poomse/eetc... == encyclopedae of a fighting system

If the system is barebones enough to the point at each workout everything is covered, then the encyclopedae aren't needed. If the system does nothing for aesthetics, they aren't needed.

Boxing is surely a martial art, yet there's no formal encyclopedia of techniques.

 

[dancingalone]

I think it's just a label. Plenty of systems don't use kata but nonetheless call themselves martial arts. CLFSean has listed a few. Consider also Brazilian jiujitsu or even the United States Marines Martial Arts Program.

Some people prefer the term 'combatives', since it sounds strong and no-nonsense. To me it's also just a label. Can you take karate and train it in street clothes with 'live' scenarios against knife and club attacks. Yup. You could even call it a 'karate combatives' if you want.

 

[clfsean]

I think it's just a label. Plenty of systems don't use kata but nonetheless call themselves martial arts. CLFSean has listed a few. Consider also Brazilian jiujitsu or even the United States Marines Martial Arts Program.

Some people prefer the term 'combatives', since it sounds strong and no-nonsense. To me it's also just a label. Can you take karate and train it in street clothes with 'live' scenarios against knife and club attacks. Yup. You could even call it a 'karate combatives' if you want.

Originally... karate had to kata per se. There were exercises & drills, but not really any kata. Sanchin was about "the" only kata after the initial Chinese import of it.

 

[dancingalone]

Originally... karate had to kata per se. There were exercises & drills, but not really any kata. Sanchin was about "the" only kata after the initial Chinese import of it.

Not to derail the thread, but which branch of karate are you talking about? Since you mention sanchin, surely you mean goju or uechi?

Within goru-ryu karate, I believe Kanryu Higashionna used kata extensively. He studied in China with Ryu Ryu Kyo and then taught his student Chojun Miyagi much of what he learned, so he's the Chinese link at least for goju-ryu. Do you have a resource I can read about the relative ages of each kata? I'd love to know when each one was invented. My own teacher is an Okinawan, but he himself doesn't know.

 

[clfsean]

Not to derail the thread, but which branch of karate are you talking about? Since you mention sanchin, surely you mean goju or uechi?

Sanchin's sanchin, but I'm referring more to the Goju than Uechi.

Within goru-ryu karate, I believe Kanryu Higashionna used kata extensively. He studied in China with Ryu Ryu Kyo and then taught his student Chojun Miyagi much of what he learned, so he's the Chinese link at least for goju-ryu. Do you have a resource I can read about the relative ages of each kata? I'd love to know when each one was invented. My own teacher is an Okinawan, but he himself doesn't know.

I know a smidge (not much) about the Goju history & while Higashionna did learn in China, I don't believe he learned all the kata practiced in Goju there did he? I know Sanchin & one or two other Goju kata have "cousins" in Fukienese White Crane sets.

As for the age... no idea. Sanchin (Sam Chien) has been in Fukinese MA for a while... White Crane, 5 Ancestors, some lines of Hung fist & similar styles use it. No idea about it's origins though.

 

[jarrod]

saying a martial style cannot be art without kata is like saying you're not really a painter if you don't do landscapes & still lifes. kata may be the classical approach to martial arts but it is far from the only approach. practical arts leave plenty of room for grace, creativity, & self-expression. personally i find them less restrictive.

jf

 

[Nolerama]

I think you can call a kata-less MA an Art.

The MA is the medium, the Art lies within the practitioner to find fighting answers within that MA. Katas are beautiful and certainly add grace and strength to a karateka. But I still consider the artistic aspect of any MA to lie within the artist him/herself.

 

[dancingalone]

I know a smidge (not much) about the Goju history & while Higashionna did learn in China, I don't believe he learned all the kata practiced in Goju there did he? I know Sanchin & one or two other Goju kata have "cousins" in Fukienese White Crane sets.

OK, thanks. I just seized on your comment that sanchin was the only kata practiced after the import from China. Knowing Higashionna taught kata extensively, I was curious to find out more from you. As I understand it, Okinawan karate has always used sets as a training method, although the golden age of kata development probably occurred during the first decade of 1900 when the likes of Mabuni and Miyagi were actively learning from their teachers and also cross-sharing their own forms.

Miyagi added the Gekkisai kata and Tensho. He also greatly modified sanchin from what Higashionna taught. No one knows for sure when Shisochin, Seiyunchin and Kururunfa were introduced but there's speculation that they were practiced as early as the mid 1800's in Okinawa.

On the Uechi side, we know Uechi came back from China with Sanchin, Sanseiru and Seisan.

Anyway, I personally think Goju people have always had more than Sanchin.

 

[terryl965]

Sure any form of a fighting system can be called an Art, there is no sure way to defeine an art let alone ignore one because it does not have a kata in it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One year plus into Krav Maga, looking back on my years in EPAK, I find myself missing the katas very much. I loved their grace and style. By contrast, Krav is all about practicality; there is no kata. I can tell that many of the movements and technique sequences are shamelessly cribbed from karate. But, looking hard at what I have learned, I see much in the way of logic and science but little in the way of Art.

By that same token, a few other martial arts also lack kata--boxing, firearms, BJJ; can we justifiably call any of them "Arts"? Is kata the ingredient that transforms something from a fighting system into an art, or is there some other essential that I'm missing?

What's your opinion on what makes something a martial Art?

Interesting topic.

The term art is not the same as in the fine arts, such as drawing, painting, dancing, and such. It is art in the sense of a practical skill. People often say about certain things that "there is an art to it" meaning that there is skill that requires a fairly deep understanding and finesse, not that there is a subjective element that is open to interpretation.

I am one of those who does not like the term, "martial arts" due to the fact that most of what we call martial arts would be better dubbed as fighting systems. But as that is the accepted term, I will speak the language.

No, a kata is not required. Kata are tools for learning and memorizing the techniques. A kata is essentially a drill. Those who compete in kata tournaments and make their kata 'artistic' certainly are skilled, but cosmetics and competition are not the intended purpose of kata.

Kata are, as clfsean pointed out, volumes in the encyclopedia of a martial art or system. Different systems have different ways of storing and transmitting techniques.

Having said that, I love kata.

Daniel

 

[Haze]

As I see it kata is just prearranged movement. If you have any type of prearranged drills, whether one man or two man, you have what can be referred to in Japanese as kata.

In krav maga you may have prearranged defenses against a particular attack. Done with another person I see this as the equivalent of kata.

All combatives can be art. As stated earlier, the art is in the practitioner.

Anyone can draw but not all are considered artists.

(my 2 cents)

 

[Andrew Green]

from m-w.com

Art:

1: skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2 a: a branch of learning: (1): one of the humanities (2)plural : liberal arts barchaic : learning, scholarship3: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>4 a: the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects ; also : works so produced b (1): fine arts (2): one of the fine arts (3): a graphic art5 aarchaic : a skillful plan b: the quality or state of being artful6: decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter

"Art" has a lot of meanings, in the case of martial arts I don't think it has to do with performance or visual art.

 

[MJS]

One year plus into Krav Maga, looking back on my years in EPAK, I find myself missing the katas very much. I loved their grace and style. By contrast, Krav is all about practicality; there is no kata. I can tell that many of the movements and technique sequences are shamelessly cribbed from karate. But, looking hard at what I have learned, I see much in the way of logic and science but little in the way of Art.

By that same token, a few other martial arts also lack kata--boxing, firearms, BJJ; can we justifiably call any of them "Arts"? Is kata the ingredient that transforms something from a fighting system into an art, or is there some other essential that I'm missing?

What's your opinion on what makes something a martial Art?

IMHO, yes, you can have an art, without kata. BJJ, Krav, JKD...those are 3 that come to mind that dont have formal kata. Now, kata does contain fighting moves, however, I do not feel that kata alone, will suffice when it comes to learning how to fight. I feel that you need to get into the ring as well.

 

[teekin]

from m-w.com

Art:



"Art" has a lot of meanings, in the case of martial arts I don't think it has to do with performance or visual art.

Then what Does it have to do with? Is there no "art" as you see it?
l

 

[dnovice]

Just like all river's run downward, all striking arts move from having no kata to having kata.

I say this because kata is just a collection of techniques compiled for practice. This was to help whoever came up with the kata to practice his moves... kinda like shadow boxing. I'm sure he envisioned his advisory in his mind. Now, people just blindly do kata's/forms. This is why many are disillusioned.

So even if kata is not taught in class, if a student ardently practices on his own linking techniques he'll eventually come up with his or her own kata.

just my one cent.... (what??? its a recession!)

 

[girlbug2]

Just like all river's run downward, all striking arts move from having no kata to having kata.

I say this because kata is just a collection of techniques compiled for practice. This was to help whoever came up with the kata to practice his moves... kinda like shadow boxing. I'm sure he envisioned his advisory in his mind. Now, people just blindly do kata's/forms. This is why many are disillusioned.

So even if kata is not taught in class, if a student ardently practices on his own linking techniques he'll eventually come up with his or her own kata.

just my one cent.... (what??? its a recession!)

You're right of course. Why didn't I think of it that way? Maybe I can be the first Kravist to come up with a formal KM kata.

 

[seasoned]

The karate punch, when I first learned it, was from the ready stance. The feet were parallel, at shoulder width apart. You Chambered the right fist along the side of your body, while the other hand, was out in front. You punched the right hand out, while the left came back to chamber, "action- reaction". This was the beginning stages of the art of punching. Most people thought that the punch began and ended at the fist, but in time, as we cultivated the art of the punch, we learned differently. We learned that the punch actual started with the stance. Once we had a strong balanced stance, the power from our legs could be enhanced by our hips, which in turn moved our shoulder. With the shoulders down, and the elbow sliding along the ribs, the fist, turned from palm up to palm down, with the striking surface, the first two knuckles, for "penetration". With everything working in unison, the end result was a smooth powerful punch. The above are principals, that apply to all manner of punching.
I am in no way trying to talk down to anyone here, but merely making a point . If you consider the above as just one technique in the many others you will learn, with, their principles, you begin to see something more then just moves, taking shape. Techniques do not make an art, but adhering to a set of principles to achieve an end result will in turn produce what we all practice and love, and that is the "art". :asian:

 

[dnovice]

The karate punch, when I first learned it, was from the ready stance. The feet were parallel, at shoulder width apart. You Chambered the right fist along the side of your body, while the other hand, was out in front. You punched the right hand out, while the left came back to chamber, "action- reaction". This was the beginning stages of the art of punching. Most people thought that the punch began and ended at the fist, but in time, as we cultivated the art of the punch, we learned differently. We learned that the punch actual started with the stance. Once we had a strong balanced stance, the power from our legs could be enhanced by our hips, which in turn moved our shoulder. With the shoulders down, and the elbow sliding along the ribs, the fist, turned from palm up to palm down, with the striking surface, the first two knuckles, for "penetration". With everything working in unison, the end result was a smooth powerful punch. The above are principals, that apply to all manner of punching.
I am in no way trying to talk down to anyone here, but merely making a point . If you consider the above as just one technique in the many others you will learn, with, their principles, you begin to see something more then just moves, taking shape. Techniques do not make an art, but adhering to a set of principles to achieve an end result will in turn produce what we all practice and love, and that is the "art". :asian:

Agreed.

 

[dnovice]

The karate punch, when I first learned it, was from the ready stance. The feet were parallel, at shoulder width apart. You Chambered the right fist along the side of your body, while the other hand, was out in front. You punched the right hand out, while the left came back to chamber, "action- reaction". This was the beginning stages of the art of punching. Most people thought that the punch began and ended at the fist, but in time, as we cultivated the art of the punch, we learned differently. We learned that the punch actual started with the stance. Once we had a strong balanced stance, the power from our legs could be enhanced by our hips, which in turn moved our shoulder. With the shoulders down, and the elbow sliding along the ribs, the fist, turned from palm up to palm down, with the striking surface, the first two knuckles, for "penetration". With everything working in unison, the end result was a smooth powerful punch. The above are principals, that apply to all manner of punching.
I am in no way trying to talk down to anyone here, but merely making a point . If you consider the above as just one technique in the many others you will learn, with, their principles, you begin to see something more then just moves, taking shape. Techniques do not make an art, but adhering to a set of principles to achieve an end result will in turn produce what we all practice and love, and that is the "art". :asian:

Agreed. Although Principles are vital they are manifested in real life as techniques. An analogy would be "in war a general would strategy that is manifested as fighting in his men. Although, not visible an armies fighting, their fighting iS borne of strategy" ( hopefully). -- got this from sun tzu.

When one blindly follows kata/forms/ the teachings of an instructor principles are neglected. Now, some arts have way too many principles but that's for another discussion.