can cma handle grappling?

[theneuhauser]

what im thinking is something along the lines of, are the techniques of the old systems enough to handle today's advanced grappling techniques? many cma have throws and other stand up techniques that are basically designed to handle close opponents or rushing opponents but still keep your own but off the dirt. i think that many traditional systems are pretty close to complete, and they teach big curriculums as a side effect. is there room for more? would it be overkill to add groundfighting to a system that already includes, weapons, forms, kicking and striking, qin na soft training, hard, qi gong, conditioning, etc......?

 

[arnisador]

I just saw CHIN-NA: The Grappling Art of Self-Defense Vol.1,2 in the bookstores this month. I imagine shuai chiao fares well in grappling.

But to address your question, I think CMA techniques by and large are good for standing up fighting but wouldn't fare well against a grappling specialist if they started or ended up on the ground. Still, remember that many CMA styles have ripping/clawing/tearing techniques that would be applicable there.

 

[Matt Stone]

A few years back, I was paired up as the "champion" of my office against the "champion" of another office (we are all paralegals in the Army, and competition is very active for ***** talking rights anywhere we can earn them).

I am a kung fu player, internal arts primarily with little other experience at that time (since I have studied Modern Arnis and Ryu Te Karate). He was a wrestler trained in Iowa by a group of brothers that are apparently very well known for training collegiate champions (I can't remember their names right now, but I'd know them if I heard them).

Anyway.

We started circling each other, and in short order my opponent took me to the ground. I went onto my back immediately, which took him by surprise (he had expected me to keep him from pinning me, but being pinned was the least of my concerns). I began alternatingly freeing my hands, reaching out for vital points, seizing points, etc. I didn't strike him with any force, just lightly touching him repeatedly (we are fellow soldiers, and getting into a real fight is not only a real No Go, but we were friends to boot...).

His side kept pointing out how well he was keeping me pinned beneath him, unable to get him off of me. My side pointed out to his side that every time I was touching him was one strike that he failed to deal with...

When I trained in Modern Arnis in Japan, my instructor was also a big grappling fan. I will admit, were he and I to get into a fight it would get really ugly, and I have absolutely no idea who would win... I would like to say I would, but I know better... The sombo and BJJ stuff he showed me was very nasty, and I know that grapplers do not refrain from striking their downed opponent. However, I believed then, and do so now, that traditional CMA, and traditional MA for that matter, have sufficient skills present in their curricula to allow for dealing with grappling situations.

As noted on some other threads, it all amounts to how you train.

Make friends with grapplers. Invite them to your school or training hall, and play around with some situations. See if you can find ways to apply what you have been taught to that kind of situation. Only then will you really know.

Gambarimasu.

 

[TkdWarrior]

IMHO any striking art doesn't supposed to meant to end up on ground... if CMA(striking) guy couldn't take grappler to his ground(speciality) then he's isn't learning ...
why u need to go to ground with grapplers??
anways CMA=Chinese Martial Arts Shui chao is also CMA which address ground grappling too...

"i think that many traditional systems are pretty close to complete, and they teach big curriculums as a side effect. is there room for more? "
room for improvement...yes...
-TkdWarrior-

 

[7starmantis]

I think alot of CMA have such advanced defense that grapplers may find it hard to actually get a CMAist to the ground to begin with. With low stance training and rooting, with the yielding of the body to the power of the attack, and the movement of stances, I think there is alot of defense against rushing opponants or apponants trying to take you to the ground. The Chin Na applications and joint manipulations many CMAs have are also very effective against grapplers, even if you are taken to the ground, which would be somethign you would want to avoid in my opinion, the training on close quarters would come in very useful. The many attacks a CMAist has is a punch that is blocked immediatly going to an elbow blocked goign to a grab, crossing the opponants arms, strike. These I think are very effective against a grappler if used quickly enough.
Can a grappler beat a CMAist, of course. Can a CMAist beat a grappler, of course, it depends on the training, but is traditional CMA lacking in the defense of advanced modern grapplers, I don't believe so. To say that CMA needs to be improved could only be said by someone who has mastered the entire system I would think. How could we sit and say this needs to be improved when we don't even know what else is contained in the system?

Just my humble opinions though,
7sm

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

anways CMA=Chinese Martial Arts Shui chao is also CMA which address ground grappling too...

"i think that many traditional systems are pretty close to complete, and they teach big curriculums as a side effect. is there room for more? "
room for improvement...yes...
-TkdWarrior-

I thought Shui Chao was only a throwing art, not one that dealt with being on the ground. It's primary mission is to throw the person to the ground so hard that they don't get up and you don't go down with them.

I've seen a book recently by an author named Liang that's called Chinese Fast Wrestling (San Shou Kuai Jiao??). It deals with throws and ground fighting. I found it interesting that the ground fight pictures were of another person, though, and not Liang. The ground techniques are very much like BJJ too.

WhiteBirch

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir

I thought Shui Chao was only a throwing art, not one that dealt with being on the ground.

Yes, I think this is principally the case--still, it's grappling.

I've seen a book recently by an author named Liang that's called Chinese Fast Wrestling (San Shou Kuai Jiao??). It deals with throws and ground fighting.

I have this and think it has some excellent techniques in it.

 

[7starmantis]

OH, I just figured something out, when everyone is talking about grappling I'm thinking "groundfighting", so do you define grappling as "close combat" as some of the other threads have, or what exactly are we talking about ?

7sm

 

[chufeng]

REAL CMA teaches all of it, to include throws and ground fighting.

The reason we don't like going to the ground is because while dealing with the guy who took you to the ground, his friends are getting ready to kick the snot out of you.

But, trust me...we can play very effectively on the ground, if that is where it ends up...

Just because you don't see it on the surface, doesn't mean it isn't there.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[arnisador]

I think of this as including judo and Greco-Roman style standing grappling as well as ground-fighting. (I don't mean judo techniques per se, but that range and that attempt to control the body rather than strike it.) In fact, for 'grappling' I usually think standing grappling, but that's just me.

 

[7starmantis]

So what am I missing here? I'm feeling very dense! All I hear is these MMA kids screaming that traditional systems have nothing on grappling, or cannot defend against a good grappler. I always took that as them saying we cannot defend against someone takign us to the ground, but if grappling is to include standing grappling as well, have they never heard of Chin Na? Tai Chi? I mean these would be some of the oldest and in my opinion most effective grappling tools there are.

Again, just my humble opinion,
7sm

 

[arnisador]

I think they are referring to the belief that a traditional martial artist couldn't be taken to the ground. They charge, grab a leg, hang on like a bulldog, and wait till the person falls.

 

[chufeng]

I don't really care what a MMA person says or does.

His overconfidence is my advantage...

The more people who think of me as a weakling, the better my advantage when it comes to surprising someone who attacks me.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[thatoneguy]

in my opinion it depends on the martial artists involved in the fight
also in my opinion grappeling isnt the best for fighting groups so if i was fighting 2 on 2 i would chose 2 people using an older nongrappeling system over 2 grappelers

yet in a 1 on 1 match the grappeler quiet possibly win if the old style didnt have anyways to deal with a grappeler
then again im no master so i may well be wrong

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by thatoneguy

yet in a 1 on 1 match the grappeler quiet possibly win if the old style didnt have anyways to deal with a grappeler
then again im no master so i may well be wrong

What I don't understand is what makes a grapplers attack different from any other attack? If you train in defend against any attack, what makes a grapplers attack so special that no one can defend against it, its hype pure and simple, and attack is an attack and there is only a limited amount of way to attack.

7sm

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

What I don't understand is what makes a grapplers attack different from any other attack? If you train in defend against any attack, what makes a grapplers attack so special that no one can defend against it, its hype pure and simple, and attack is an attack and there is only a limited amount of way to attack.

To me, the difference that they're highlighting is that most CMA doesn't deal with fight once it hits the ground. While BJJ has strikes and kicks in it, their intent is to gain access to the opponent in order to take them down. Most CMA tries to finish the fight while standing. There are different strategies involved and different moves once you're on your back.

I personally think learning to fight in all ranges is important and that both sides are just beating their chests when they say they can handle the other without entering the other's territory. Trying to grab a good stand-up fighter can get you a lot of trouble and someone who only practices while standing will have a difficult time on the ground. It's all about balanced training if that's what you're concerned about.

WhiteBirch

 

[7starmantis]

No, I train very balanced, I just don't understand the hype that bjj and all has nowdays. "the Gracies can take anyone to the ground and finish the fight". I jsut don't understand blanketed comments like that, that all I'm saying.

7sm

 

[lvwhitebir]

BJJ made it big when the UFC started. Not many styles really worked on the ground saying that they would never end up there anyways. Then the UFC hit the stage and the Gracies proved them wrong, taking everyone to the floor and finishing the fight there.

Now you can see more mixed matches with neither side of the art particularly dominating. Every fight has standup and ground elements.

Back then I could see why they were talking. Now, though, many styles have incorporated or strengthened their ground fighting capabilities so that there's less difference between the styles. Also the BJJ stylists have added Muy Thai and JKD to their arsenals so they can fight standing up. We're starting to see the middle ground (thus MMA's claim to fame), but I think it was probably there all the time.

So, the short of it, people are just repeating what they've been saying for the last several years, without looking around and seeing the more middle-ground approach being taken. They think it makes them sound like they're smarter than you, because they're studying the "right" art. I personally just smile and let it pass.

WhiteBirch

 

[thatoneguy]

i think grappeling has advantages in a 1 on 1 match but if your on the street and your opponent who has friends then your in alot more trouble than good old punching and kicking

i think that one must have skills in grappeling kicking and punching for a good chance to win in a UFC

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by thatoneguy


i think that one must have skills in grappeling kicking and punching for a good chance to win in a UFC

Since most of us study MA or CMA in general for self preservation and protection I don't think UFC is on our minds much at all. I personally think a serious student of most CMA systems (not only CMA systems, but thats where my expertise is so I'll limit my statement to them) are not interested in cross training because their system offers strong emphasis on striking, kicking, and grappling. From my personal experience most CMA have strong defense against and strong techniques in grappling.

Again, just my simple opinion,

7sm