Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

Steve

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The YMCA has their membership fees, sure.

You're confused, I clarify and ask if you're still confused, and that's rude?

Yammering on, saying the same thing 1,874,635 times could be considered rude too, I guess.
Yeah, it's rude. You know it.
 

Hot Lunch

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McDonalds is a junk-food business designed to make the maximum profit for the minimum effort.
Again, everyone knows what they're getting at McDonald's and they still want it. If you know what you're getting and you still pay money for it, it's because you believe that it's a fair deal.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Again, everyone knows what they're getting at McDonald's and they still want it. If you know what you're getting and you still pay money for it, it's because you believe that it's a fair deal.
Not everybody wants that. Not everyone knows what they are getting. I have recently had an adult patient tell me they didnt know soda calories are the same as food calories. They also thought anything made from plants was a vegetable, like French fries and the lettuce on their Big Mac. If you think that greasy, preservative laden 10 year old dairy cow beef placed between high fructose corn syrup bread is a deal, then good for you.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Stretching analogies is fun, and timely given the other discussion going on about being bound by tradition. Reminds me of this video.


If martial arts is like nutrition, then tradition can often be the source of a lot of persistent myths. Searing in steak locks in the juices. Don't eat eggs. And on and on.

The thing is, getting back to that video, most martial artists are like a person who's never had their bloodwork done... and never intends to. I can eat whatever I want, and as long as I never have my cholesterol checked, as far as I know, it's great. Until, that is, I have a heart attack, at which point I will be paying dearly for my denial.

As always, there are different priorities. Effective and authentic, however, are not intrinsically linked. You can have both... or neither... or one or the other. I think some posters around here prioritize authenticity and are probably very successful. But they presume efficacy, and I think that's like avoiding getting your cholesterol checked regularly.
I think some posters around here are obsessed with what they presume about what others presume. I think some posters around here are passive aggressive about their presumptions of the lack of efficacy of others. Thats an easy stance to take when they dont have to have the courage of their convictions. I wonder at their personal efficacy when they continually question that of others they know little about
 

Steve

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There are a lot of schools in the US that are teaching martial arts at a low level of quality. Im not going to call them McDojo because I do not believe that term can be adequately defined to everyones satisfaction. But low quality is, in my opinion, much more common than high quality.

In the end, if the students at those schools are happy with what they get, it isnt for me to force my way in and tell them otherwise or try to shut the school down. However, if someone asks for my opinion about a place, or asks me to evaluate a place because they are thinking of enrolling their kid there, I will give my honest assessment.

It is my opinion that the general public mostly does not know better, and is getting ripped off. This is particularly true when people are beginners and do not know enough to understand the difference between high and low quality training and instruction. They choose a school because it is nearby and easy to get to, not because they evaluated the quality.

If someone is raised on Fruit Loops and Frosted Flakes and Wonder Bread and McDonalds, and that is all they have experienced in terms of food, then they simply do not know any better. They are happy with what they have because they do not know that other options exist.
The thing is, some folks are eating a Filet o Fish, but because it looks like this they think it's better than what it is:
1686583492228.png


And they lack the experience to recognize it, because they've never had great food before. And in some cases, they are very proud of the fact that they don't eat the food they make. If martial arts were food, then this picture epitomizes the issues. These same people would argue that taste is only one reason people eat food. Some people prefer how it looks, and so the plate above is meeting their needs. Nutrition is another measure, but not everyone is looking for nutrition, and if you don't eat it anyway, why does taste or nutrition matter?

Practical arts, like MMA, boxing, Judo, and a host of others, are like delicious food with a rustic presentation. Some are more nutritious than others. Some of the practitioners are better at cooking the meals, but they all taste great and provide some nutrition.

And styles where there is no practical application are like foods that look like art, but aren't tasty or particularly nutritious... or more accurately, where these two things are deprioritized.

The trick is figuring out which parts of martial arts are nutritious, which are tasty, and which are pretty. I know the answer is clear to me.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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The thing is, some folks are eating a Filet o Fish, but because it looks like this they think it's better than what it is:
View attachment 29855

And they lack the experience to recognize it, because they've never had great food before. And in some cases, they are very proud of the fact that they don't eat the food they make. If martial arts were food, then this picture epitomizes the issues. These same people would argue that taste is only one reason people eat food. Some people prefer how it looks, and so the plate above is meeting their needs. Nutrition is another measure, but not everyone is looking for nutrition, and if you don't eat it anyway, why does taste or nutrition matter?

Practical arts, like MMA, boxing, Judo, and a host of others, are like delicious food with a rustic presentation. Some are more nutritious than others. Some of the practitioners are better at cooking the meals, but they all taste great and provide some nutrition.

And styles where there is no practical application are like foods that look like art, but aren't tasty or particularly nutritious... or more accurately, where these two things are deprioritized.

The trick is figuring out which parts of martial arts are nutritious, which are tasty, and which are pretty. I know the answer is clear to me.
Circling back to some styles are better than others? You leave that poor horse alone!
 

Steve

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I think some posters around here are obsessed with what they presume about what others presume. I think some posters around here are passive aggressive about their presumptions of the lack of efficacy of others. Thats an easy stance to take when they dont have to have the courage of their convictions. I wonder at their personal efficacy when they continually question that of others they know little about
Don't take things personally. I don't make any presumptions. I take things based on what other people say. You've been in a fight or two, according to your own statements. I figure you know if what you're "eating" is "nutritious." Developing skill is a personal endeavor. We can talk about whether cooking is a real thing, and discuss technique in a vacuum. But that doesn't mean you or I can actually cook... and the only way for me to figure that out for myself is to actually do it. Right?

Regarding passive aggressiveness, it's an unfortunate result of the rules of the forum. We can't be more direct, and so it leads to unfortunate situations like this, where you appear to be taking comments personally that have nothing to do with you. :)
 

Steve

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Circling back to some styles are better than others? You leave that poor horse alone!
It's never about the style, my friend. Some styles just tend to cook better food than others. When I worked at McD's in high school (in the 80s), we made some damn good food after the restaurant closed. It's not fish... it's how you cook it that matters. :D

Look at it like this. Gerry has been very open about some of the problems he's seen in aikido. @JowGaWolf has been open about some of the problems he's seen in jow ga. You've talked about some of those issues, as well. And all three of you appear to be trying to address the issues in some way.

Personally, and sorry for another analogy, but this is like someone saying, "Hey, I'm the only one who calls my brother a dingbat!"
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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The thing is, some folks are eating a Filet o Fish, but because it looks like this they think it's better than what it is:
View attachment 29855

And they lack the experience to recognize it, because they've never had great food before. And in some cases, they are very proud of the fact that they don't eat the food they make. If martial arts were food, then this picture epitomizes the issues. These same people would argue that taste is only one reason people eat food. Some people prefer how it looks, and so the plate above is meeting their needs. Nutrition is another measure, but not everyone is looking for nutrition, and if you don't eat it anyway, why does taste or nutrition matter?

Practical arts, like MMA, boxing, Judo, and a host of others, are like delicious food with a rustic presentation. Some are more nutritious than others. Some of the practitioners are better at cooking the meals, but they all taste great and provide some nutrition.

And styles where there is no practical application are like foods that look like art, but aren't tasty or particularly nutritious... or more accurately, where these two things are deprioritized.

The trick is figuring out which parts of martial arts are nutritious, which are tasty, and which are pretty. I know the answer is clear to me.
Some things might not look appealing or taste great but are quite healthy and nutritious. Oatmeal an even lower that cholesterol they might not be checking. Poi is quite a good food, but certainly an acquired taste. You can bounce a bag of cold gray poi off the kitchen floor.
 

Hot Lunch

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Not everybody wants that. Not everyone knows what they are getting. I have recently had an adult patient tell me they didnt know soda calories are the same as food calories. They also thought anything made from plants was a vegetable, like French fries and the lettuce on their Big Mac.
Well, "everyone" should imply "reasonable adults." As the person you're describing doesn't appear to be one.

If someone says "fries are potatoes, and potatoes are vegetables;" they either know better and are using tongue-in-cheek justification to eat fries, or they probably rode the short bus.

The other thing to consider is the fact that McDonald's has never said that its food was healthy, nor have they ever marketed their food towards the health conscious.
If you think that greasy, preservative laden 10 year old dairy cow beef placed between high fructose corn syrup bread is a deal, then good for you.
Agreed. But we can't say that the practices were deceptive.
 

Steve

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Some things might not look appealing or taste great but are quite healthy and nutritious. Oatmeal an even lower that cholesterol they might not be checking. Poi is quite a good food, but certainly an acquired taste. You can bounce a bag of cold gray poi off the kitchen floor.
Totally agree. MMA is the oatmeal of martial arts.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Don't take things personally. I don't make any presumptions. I take things based on what other people say. You've been in a fight or two, according to your own statements. I figure you know if what you're "eating" is "nutritious." Developing skill is a personal endeavor. We can talk about whether cooking is a real thing, and discuss technique in a vacuum. But that doesn't mean you or I can actually cook... and the only way for me to figure that out for myself is to actually do it. Right?

Regarding passive aggressiveness, it's an unfortunate result of the rules of the forum. We can't be more direct, and so it leads to unfortunate situations like this, where you appear to be taking comments personally that have nothing to do with you. :)
Gasp! Clutching my pearls! I was not directing that comment at anyone in particular(note my wording). Im certainly not defending any bullshitters. Im just making a point that since none of us have been in a kitchen together or tasted one anothers cooking, we cant truly speak to the quality or lack thereof of any individual skills. I am a fan of tasting. I have been wrong about what I like several times when presented with a different recipe. Not mushrooms though. 50 first dates and it is consistently something I cannot find virtue in.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Don't take things personally. I don't make any presumptions. I take things based on what other people say. You've been in a fight or two, according to your own statements. I figure you know if what you're "eating" is "nutritious." Developing skill is a personal endeavor. We can talk about whether cooking is a real thing, and discuss technique in a vacuum. But that doesn't mean you or I can actually cook... and the only way for me to figure that out for myself is to actually do it. Right?

Regarding passive aggressiveness, it's an unfortunate result of the rules of the forum. We can't be more direct, and so it leads to unfortunate situations like this, where you appear to be taking comments personally that have nothing to do with you. :)
I dont take it personal. I just like to see what people will say now and again. You are one of my favorite targets. You are always willing to go to bat. I like that about you.
 

Steve

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Gasp! Clutching my pearls! I was not directing that comment at anyone in particular(note my wording). Im certainly not defending any bullshitters. Im just making a point that since none of us have been in a kitchen together or tasted one anothers cooking, we cant truly speak to the quality or lack thereof of any individual skills. I am a fan of tasting. I have been wrong about what I like several times when presented with a different recipe. Not mushrooms though. 50 first dates and it is consistently something I cannot find virtue in.
Do you need to lay down? Have a case of the vapors? :D

What you say above is the actual point I was trying to make.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Do you need to lay down? Have a case of the vapors? :D

What you say above is the actual point I was trying to make.
Im fine thanks. Sometimes you are hard to decipher. But then, I have had a lot of traumatic head injuries. Maybe I just prefer my cooking to the unknown @Steve recipe. That said, Im always willing to try anything someone will offer me. Again, Im not mad or offended. I just like some spirited talk. Spices.
 

Taiji Rebel

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It is all about being an informed consumer rather than gullible. Calling out a McDojo is fine and more people should do it. It is unfair to rip people off by promising them the real deal whilst feeding them junk. And McDonalds is a business with a clown for a mascot so that pretty much tells you everything you need to know about the place 不
 
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