Buying rank

[Kacey]

To answer the original question - if you're happy, and the school is happy, I don't think it makes that much difference. I began teaching a kids' class on Saturday mornings affiliated with (but separate from) my instructor's class when I was a I Dan. That class continued, in one incarnation or another, through to this day. By the time I was a II Dan, the class had moved to a separate location, which is where it is now, although his color belt students visit my class and mine visit his, and the monthly red/black belt class is held at his facility, and we trade off teaching it (I'm now a IV Dan). While I understand the historical perspective, and think that the gentleman in question was complimenting you, I also understand your reaction. I was a pretty slow tester (for several reasons, largely involving graduate school) and spent 7 years as a II Dan - but it wasn't a problem for me or for my students.

To answer the other point that came up through this thread, I know plenty of students who would not be able to teach an independent class at I Dan, although they are certainly able to assist or teach smaller groups - some because they are not able to explain, and some because they don't THINK they are able to explain (some correctly, and some not). I do think that all black belt students should help with the class, and there are quite a few ways they can do it - but I also know of an instructor who was promoted to VII Dan (which is Master Instructor in the ITF) without ever being an independent instructor - said person taught in other peoples' schools on a regular but not always predictable schedule, and never had personal students (that is, students who consider said person to be their own instructor), and certainly never took a student from white belt to black belt - at that point, HOW can you be a Master Instructor if you've never been a student's instructor? Therefore, I do think that, as you get farther up the rank levels, you should be required to teach, at least to the extent described (having individual students, and having at least 1 travel from white belt to black belt with you as an instructor) - how else can you be a master instructor, if you've never been an instructor? But that's just my opinion.

 

[evenflow1121]

So long as you know what you are teaching I dont see a problem. I really would not worry about what some guy like that said, he is obviously out to make a buck if he was to refer you to someone who would skip rank for you. As far as Shodan goes, I dont see a problem not only with you teaching but with you opening up a school, why not? There is a guy out in Miami that teaches Shotokan and with him it can take anywhere from 5-7 years to get Shodan with others by that time you may already have a nidan not be anywhere as knowledgeable as his Shodan BB's. Dont worry about what that guy said, if you know what you are doing then that is all that should matter.

 

[DArnold]

To my knowledge, this is not as offensive at it sounds. In Japan, there are two ways to get rank: (1) by technical testing in front of a grading committee, or (2) by recommendation. Option 1 is so very very very hard, for example, out of hundreds of people tested for 8th Dan in JKF-Wadokai last year, only one passed.

Option 2 will be given based on an individual's contribution to the ryuha/style and organizations and his time in grade. Off course the "contributions" could also means "financial". However, (if I am not mistaken), those who receive their high Dan rank through option 2 would still have to pass their 1st and 2nd Dan by actual testing through their sensei and/or through a grading committee, before they will be considered to receive their subsequent Dan levels through option 2. So option 2 is really just for 3rd dan and above.

Many people received their high Dan rank due to this option and it is not considered illegitimate in Japan.

There is also Option 3, which is "honorary" dank (Mei-yo Dan) given to people who gave a significant contribution to the growth of Wadokai in a country. But off course this is just "honorary" and the recipient cannot claim to possess the skill level of his honorary grade.

Off course I could be WAY OFF.. after all, TKD is Korean and Karate is Japanese.. maybe there are differences in culture which I don't understand..

IMHO - I think these ARE as offensive as they sound because they are just excuses. Excuses for whatever reasons. And if this is acceptable in the the Japan system you are talking about it shows you the quality/integrity of that system. That no matter what the rank...

in this system you don't know if they are a capable black belt or just a paper pusher...

Everyone wants their rank to mean something and if you know how the original color of the belt system came about then you know why. It comes from time, blood, sweat, & tears.

Let's face it, many martial artists/organizations are just in the game to make a quick buck. I have been with several Oriental instructors and even though they profess that their goal is to make their students better than themselves, I noticed that they never gave me everything. If they did I wouldn't come back and then they would loose money.

As for your examples, it's degrading to anyone in any art that has ever had to really earn a rank.

As for your points:
1) That's ok that people fail. I would immagine that most martial artist agree that 8th Dans should not be handed out like a glass of water.

2) Nope, doesn't hold water either as this means that a high rank in this organization means you are good at paperwork, or fundraising, or cleaning the gym, or whatever... other than the actual art itself. This again demeans all those who have worked hard to achieve the rank.

3) "But off course this is just "honorary" and the recipient cannot claim to possess the skill level of his honorary grade." So does this mean that you don't respect their rank??? So many people have given Chuck Norris an honary rank that it is silly. They usually just want to clime on the gravy train and try to associat themselves with someone famous.

Right now the ITF has fractured into 4 factions (as most dictatorships do) so each fraction is drastically dropping their requirments to gain numbers and $$$ as they squabble over who is more valid. They are handing out rank to students like water. And we all know that validity comes from $$, numbers, and rank. In some we refer to their test times as "In dog years"

How many people have you walked up to and said, "oh I would respect your rank but you gained it becuase you were good at paperwork" or "your rank is just honarary" If you want to sell it, or give it for other reasons than MA's or honarary, then make it a "Pink Belt". That way we all know it was for something other than MA's

I doubt it, when you put on the belt you are showing to the world that you are that rank. And for the above reasons this is what has given martial arts a bad name.

We jokeingly reffer to what happened to you as "Crossing the Internation Dan Line" - each time you cross it flying West (or is it East) you gain a couple of Dans

You did the right thing by thinking this Master was a sham. Follow your training and not a person. Keep your integrity intact.

Many have said you need to be a black belt to teach. Not really so. I have known many that started teaching at Green or Blue. Simply because they had a love for the art and there was no one else. So they stepped up to the plate. Did they make mistakes. Yes, but "There by the grace of god go I". And of all these classes they are still around because they do it for the right reasons and not a $$.

When most of the greats were sent to the US in the 60's to start Taekwon-do... you know who I mean. These are the biggies in the magazines today, they only knew up to green belt rank ability, but the founders put a black belt on them and said go start TKD in the U.S. Because it was impresive to see a black belt in the US in the 60's.

You have protected the integrity of your fellow students, your school, your instructor, all martial arts.

But mostly your own integrity, which is usually the most you can do. You initial gut reaction was correct in your outrage and people will see this in you. That is why they respect you as most here do becuase of your reaction.

There are those that wear a Black Belt and there are those that are a black belt.

Showing respect and giving respect are two different things.

Showing respect is for the mear belt. (I can turn this on and off like a Ki-ai)
Giving respect is for the integrity in the person.

If it looks like **** Edited to conform to MT's Profanity policy
Smells like ****... Edited to conform to MT's Profanity Policy *Please let the filter do it's job& review the rules http://martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=141&

Then it probably is

 

[Jonathan Randall]

At some the schools I have visited, I seen 17 year bbs. do a better job at "teaching" than instructors with 3rd and 4th degrees bbs at the same school. Now does this mean that those young men know more than those instructors? No by no means do they probably have the level of knowledge or experience. But what it does mean ( at least in my opinion ) that they may have a better understanding of the break down /application or at least a better understanding on how to teach or model to some one what they need to learn.

Very true. It used to be very common to find (and maybe still is) brown belts in Judo assisting at classe and even running (very effectively, I might add) their own small clubs under the eye and authority of a licensed Sandan or above. Heck, my first instruction came from a brown belt named Mr. Brown in 1972! On the other hand, a brown belt thirty years ago held more currency than a 3-4th Dan today in many respects.

 

[shesulsa]

I finally read through this entire discussion and I noticed that you hinted at something, boricuatkd, that no one else has touched on.

I was married to a kenpo black belt and never held rank in that system - but I knew and understood the techniques, the forms, stances, subtleties, nuances, etcetera of most of the system. Spouses of masters or higher ranks, etcetera, learn MUCH by osmosis - more than many are willing to realize. So you likely DO have knowledge beyond your rank (to say the least).

As to the situation in particular, it's hard for me really to say what was going through this person's head because I am not he. A few possibilities have been thrown out there. He might have recoiled at your statement because he just assumed that with your skill and demonstrated confidence with the material that you were higher, etcetera. But he certainly was rude and assuming, in my opinion.

Then there is the valid point that many people who hold dan ranking (especially chodan) have reached some 'goal' they had in life and many think that's the be-all-end-all of martial arts training. But really, so what? Each instructor should be evaluated on his/her own merit and ability.

The other point I wanted to make was that the student who thinks you're not worthy of learning from because you're "only a 1st dan" might not be a valuable student. An example, if I may: My teacher is in his 60s and doesn't run, jump, spin, cartwheel or anything in front of other people. He holds a higher rank in another art than our current art which he began in his late 40s. He has studied many arts, is one of the most knowledgeable people I've heard talk about martial arts and the martial way. Yet because of his age, some young men get a glimpse of or train with a younger master (at a seminar, for instance) and think, 'wow, I want to train with HIM - this old guy can't teach me anything.' This attitude can sometimes spill over onto women and the spouses of instructors/masters.

An opinion that has already been stated that I agree with is that if your master is happy with you in your rank, you're happy with you in your rank and your school then my advice would be (if you're asking for it) let people make all the comments they want and tell them you are just where you should be right now in training and thanks for their concern and walk away.

You're a strong woman and it sounds to me like Terry is lucky to have you, as are your students. :asian:

 

[arnisador]

It used to be very common to find (and maybe still is) brown belts in Judo assisting at classe and even running (very effectively, I might add) their own small clubs under the eye and authority of a licensed Sandan or above. Heck, my first instruction came from a brown belt named Mr. Brown in 1972! On the other hand, a brown belt thirty years ago held more currency than a 3-4th Dan today in many respects.

I still see that in Judo. In BJJ, you see it with blue belts!

In Modern Arnis, you used to get a basic instructor's certificate after a single camp and were encouraged to share the art with your friends.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

IMHO - I think these ARE as offensive as they sound because they are just excuses. Excuses for whatever reasons. And if this is acceptable in the the Japan system you are talking about it shows you the quality/integrity of that system. That no matter what the rank.. in this system you don't know if they are a capable black belt or just a paper pusher...

Absolutely no argument from me at this point. I have meet 3rd Dans who only have knowledge of 1st Dan. Go figure

Still, as in any group of people, the great technicians will shine, while the paper pushers will, well, take care of paperworks

Let's face it, many martial artists/organizations are just in the game to make a quick buck. I have been with several Oriental instructors and even though they profess that their goal is to make their students better than themselves, I noticed that they never gave me everything. If they did I wouldn't come back and then they would loose money.

even the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese love money too, you know

 

[green meanie]

I still see that in Judo. In BJJ, you see it with blue belts!

I'm not surprised. From what I've seen, it takes just about the same amount of time to get a blue belt in BJJ as it does to get brown belt in most everything else. It's not at all uncommon for a BJJ purple belt to open and run his own school and have a blue belt assistant with the same responisibilites and respect that one would normally associate with a black belt instructor with a brown belt assistant.

In Modern Arnis, you used to get a basic instructor's certificate after a single camp and were encouraged to share the art with your friends.

I find that really interesting but I'm not sure why yet.

 

[Andrew Green]

2) Nope, doesn't hold water either as this means that a high rank in this organization means you are good at paperwork, or fundraising, or cleaning the gym, or whatever... other than the actual art itself. This again demeans all those who have worked hard to achieve the rank.

So... The Japanese use the Japanese ranking system wrong according to a non-Japanese person. Right.

Perhaps there is more to growing a art then technical skill, perhaps those other things are important, perhaps they are worth recognizing, perhaps not everyone uses the system the same way...

And why should they? Where in the "official" belt giving rules does it say that belts should only be given for technical skill?

There are no official belt giving rules, everyone is free to do what they like with them. There are no universal standards, they are purely a internal thing to a school or organization.

At 8th dan it shouldn't be about technical skill, no one should expect it too. By this time the people going for it are well past there prime in terms of technical skill, so if rank is nothing but technical skill the top ranked guys would be mostly 20-35 years old.

If someone hosts tournaments, travels around doing seminars, spends all there time promoting and growing the system they should be recognized within the system for that. And as there is only one method of recognition (belts) they get awarded for MANY different reasons.

 

[arnisador]

I'm not surprised. From what I've seen, it takes just about the same amount of time to get a blue belt in BJJ as it does to get brown belt in most everything else. It's not at all uncommon for a BJJ purple belt to open and run his own school and have a blue belt assistant with the same responisibilites and respect that one would normally associate with a black belt instructor with a brown belt assistant.

I think this is pretty much so...it's about 2-3 years to blue belt and the same again to purple belt, as a rule, so that makes a purple belt in the ballpark of a typical shodan, as far as time in is concerned. Plus, there's no question about how skilled the person is...either he or she has been beating others or not!

Prof. Presas tried very hard to get others to help him spread Modern Arnis...a great many of these people were black belts in other arts who were 'adding some sticks' to their training.

 

[Miles]

Boricuatkd, not to put you on the spot, but have you or Terry had a chance to speak with this instructor and find out what he meant by his comments?

As I am sure you are aware, what he was proposing, a skip dan, is extremely rare. I am sort of left wondering if perhaps he was thinking that Terry should have a skip and he was planting the seed in your ear, so to speak?

Feel free to PM me (or ignore me...my wife does

Miles

 

[rmclain]

Ok everyone bear with me- this maybe a little long. But I sort of need to vent. :miffer:
All right for the last couple of weeks I have been stewing over something that was brought to my attention by an acquaintance of my other half that really threw me for a total loop. And to be quite honest, offended me to some extent. To put this in retrospect, my offender is actually a master in tkd (olympic).
The gentleman comes by from time to time to visit and share with my other half regarding new tkd news. During his last visit a couple of weeks ago, he inquired whether or not I had an equal interest in our martial arts school. When I informed him that I did and that I actually helped in teaching and even in running our summer camp programs he almost recoiled from me in shock.
He then proceded to tell me that at my age I really needed to be higher than a first if I was going to be taken seriously as an instructor at our school. That at my current rank I really should not have a "hands-on" in the instruction of our students because it would not help in making our school look legit. On top of it all, he proceded to advice me to convince my husband to hook up with one of the local grand masters who could accommodate my situation by skipping me to respectful rank for my age for a reasonable price and a percentage of our student fees. Oh it would all be done through the Kukkiwon of coarse. Now I know that this does happen through out the tkd circle from time to time. But what really bothered me was the fact that he actually felt I was not qualified in teaching our students. Now, I have been to "respected" tkd schools in our area and all of them have 1st and 2nd dans teaching classes. Is there some rule that I am not aware of that prohibits lower ranking black belts fro teaching? To be honest I may only be a 1st, but I am very knowlegable that several higher ranking bbs that I know. I am a true student of my art - learning all that I can and passing that onto our students.

I wouldn't worry about this too much. There is alot of this (pay-for-promotion) going on in the Metroplex. Also, there are several Grandmasters in the area that I am sure would promote for a fee. But, the promotion is not worth the paper it is written upon - just like their promotions. You can usually tell these people from their waistlines.

Another instructor's perception of your school is not what is important - they don't benefit from your school or instruction. Your students and potential students' perception of your school and instruction is what matters.

R. McLain

 

[boricuatkd]

Boricuatkd, not to put you on the spot, but have you or Terry had a chance to speak with this instructor and find out what he meant by his comments?

As I am sure you are aware, what he was proposing, a skip dan, is extremely rare. I am sort of left wondering if perhaps he was thinking that Terry should have a skip and he was planting the seed in your ear, so to speak?

Feel free to PM me (or ignore me...my wife does

Miles

Actually, He came recently to discuss a program he wanted my help with. By chance the subject came up again. In our discussion I informed him that it was just not my style. That I would rather earn my belt and not purchase it. At that moment my beloved other half came by and let him know that when I felt I was ready to test then he would test me. Our acquaintance told us that he felt it would just make our school more respectable among the "elite" schools in the area. My response to him was that I would have the respect of my students when they see me have to complete test and earn :asian: my 2nd rather than them see me walk in with a paper that says I have a 2nd that I didin't even earn. My students' respect is more valuable than people from other schools.

 

[The MMA kid!]

Boricuatkd, what school do you attend? I teach a children's TKD class in Grand prairie. I am also a fellow Boricua!

 

[The MMA kid!]

rmclain, do you attend the Karate-do school in arlington?

 

[IcemanSK]

Actually, He came recently to discuss a program he wanted my help with. By chance the subject came up again. In our discussion I informed him that it was just not my style. That I would rather earn my belt and not purchase it. At that moment my beloved other half came by and let him know that when I felt I was ready to test then he would test me. Our acquaintance told us that he felt it would just make our school more respectable among the "elite" schools in the area. My response to him was that I would have the respect of my students when they see me have to complete test and earn :asian: my 2nd rather than them see me walk in with a paper that says I have a 2nd that I didin't even earn. My students' respect is more valuable than people from other schools.

I swear my name should be "just curious" on this board cuz I wonder out loud a lot. But, how did he react to your above statement?

 

[rmclain]

rmclain, do you attend the Karate-do school in arlington?

MMA Kid,

No, I don't attend that school. You mean the one on Randol Mill Rd., right? Why do you ask?

This is the school I train at: http://www.arlingtonkarate.com

R. McLain

 

[terryl965]

MMA Kid,

No, I don't attend that school. You mean the one on Randol Mill Rd., right? Why do you ask?

This is the school I train at: http://www.arlingtonkarate.com

R. McLain

R.mclain you are in my nick of the woods here in Arlington, we are at Six Flag Mall Dillards side of the Mall.
Terry

 

[terryl965]

Boricuatkd, what school do you attend? I teach a children's TKD class in Grand prairie. I am also a fellow Boricua!

MMA kid she is at our school we own it, it is called Twin Dragons MAS located in Six Flag Mall in Arlington at Dillards court side. What school do you teach at in Grand Prairie, GP Karate or Eagle Park or Nyguns on 303, I'm really not that familar with anybody else here in GP.
Terry Boricuatkd Husband.

 

[The MMA kid!]

R.mclain you are in my nick of the woods here in Arlington, we are at Six Flag Mall Dillards side of the Mall.
Terry

...hmmm...

yes, ive actually stopped by to take a look inside, its a pretty big space, it was closed though, didnt have a chance to look at a session.