Bullying in BJJ.

[lklawson]

I didn't see you as slamming BJJ. McDojos are springing up all over now and it's a shame.

Several years ago, on another forum, I predicted that BJJ/Grappling McDojos would soon be appearing because of the rising popularity of the style/sport. I was laughed at, shouted down, and otherwise, um, "forcefully" repudiated.

I was "wrong" I was told because Grappling and BJJ have a strong sport and competition history, a culture of "you need to be able to 'hang with' to advance," and a specifically verifiable linage from instructor to student.

Grappling McDojo's simply COULDN'T exist, I was assured. "Real" grapplers would humliate them, ruin their rep., and run them out of business.

Nevermind that Snake-oil remedies with no discernable effect have been being peddaled since time immemorial and continue yet to this day, the principle just CAN NOT be applied to Grappling/BJJ!

Last year I recieved a (completely unexpected) public apology from one of my most prominent detractors in that online disagreement.

I was never so sorry to be proven right.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Several years ago, on another forum, I predicted that BJJ/Grappling McDojos would soon be appearing because of the rising popularity of the style/sport. I was laughed at, shouted down, and otherwise, um, "forcefully" repudiated.

I was "wrong" I was told because Grappling and BJJ have a strong sport and competition history, a culture of "you need to be able to 'hang with' to advance," and a specifically verifiable linage from instructor to student.

Grappling McDojo's simply COULDN'T exist, I was assured. "Real" grapplers would humliate them, ruin their rep., and run them out of business.

Nevermind that Snake-oil remedies with no discernable effect have been being peddaled since time immemorial and continue yet to this day, the principle just CAN NOT be applied to Grappling/BJJ!

Last year I recieved a (completely unexpected) public apology from one of my most prominent detractors in that online disagreement.

I was never so sorry to be proven right.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

While they do exist, I will say that the strong competitive element helps tremendously. While many lament the watering down of Judo due to the rules of competition, the competition helps ensure that Judo rank is still meaningful and somewhat consistent, and that the efficacy of the style is protected.

In the same way, BJJ and other grappling arts are protected.

This doesn't mean that BJJ mcdojos won't exist... only that they will tend not to be involved in the local grappling community and will be very easily identified with some research.

 

[lklawson]

This doesn't mean that BJJ mcdojos won't exist... only that they will tend not to be involved in the local grappling community and will be very easily identified with some research.

I don't disagree.

However, there's a big difference between, "can't exist" and "someone who does their homework should be able to tell which is which." How often will Joe Sixpack actually do his homework?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

I don't disagree.

However, there's a big difference between, "can't exist" and "someone who does their homework should be able to tell which is which." How often will Joe Sixpack actually do his homework?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

LOL... Joe Six Pack... funny you mention that. Moving off even further on a tangent, this term is definitely a hot button for me.

Kirk, I'm with you. I wouldn't ever suggest that a BJJ McDojo "can't exist." Where there's money and stupidity, there will be an easy con. But I would still maintain that BJJ, along with Judo and other arts that incorporate competitive elements are less prone to rampant McDojoism. Also, grappling arts have an added benefit of safer sparring that can approach 100% without serious danger of injury.

Regarding Joe Six Pack (and this is a complete aside), my first thought whenever anyone brings up Joe Six Pack is, "Who gives a... crap about THAT guy?" I do believe that you have to go out of your way to find bad judo instruction for all of the reasons I mentioned. Even at the local YMCA, you can often get quality judo instruction for a very reasonable price. While BJJ is a little more expensive, you really have to go out of your way to find bad instruction.

If you truly are a joe six pack (meaning you're the quintessential couch potato who drinks beer from a can... and every negative character trait this implies), then you are a victim of your own sloth and stupidity. Seriously. This goes for any subject. Every time Palin mentioned Joe Sixpack, I wanted to throw my shoe at the TV. Joe Six Pack doesn't vote... and he doesn't train in BJJ. Honestly, Joe Six Pack is a cartoon character... a work of complete fiction that represents, in my opinion, the worst misconceptions about Americans. I don't accept that Joe Six Pack is representative of any meaningful demographic in America.

 

[lklawson]

Regarding Joe Six Pack (and this is a complete aside), my first thought whenever anyone brings up Joe Six Pack is, "Who gives a... crap about THAT guy?"

Joe Six Pack represents the majority of people and so his opinion, dreadfully uninformed though it may be, represents the MAJORITY of what interested parties will hear. If Joe has a negative opinion of grappling then that is what will be propagated throughout our culture. In that sense, Joe's opinion matters. Of course, if you want to keep your mad skillz as a secret weapon to use against the next eedjit that challenges you and don't mind classes being smaller than small and on a word-of-mouth basis, well, then Joe having the wrong info might be a good plan after all. As a friend of mine says, "Good Silat."

Even at the local YMCA, you can often get quality judo instruction for a very reasonable price.

It's where I go for Judo. Going there tonight, in fact.

I don't accept that Joe Six Pack is representative of any meaningful demographic in America.

Well, I guess that's where we disagree. Ah well. Pistols at dawn?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Joe Six Pack represents the majority of people and so his opinion, dreadfully uninformed though it may be, represents the MAJORITY of what interested parties will hear.

I disagree. Joe Six Pack is a work of fiction trotted out by people who are arguing a position on behalf of a make believe majority. Think about it this way... whenever anyone mentions "joe six pack" they're talking about a group of people of which they are not a part. And it's commonly used to bring up, without anything more than anecdotal evidence, a perceived, uninformed opinion. Sort of a, "I wouldn't ever do xy or z, but I can imagine some dumb, dirty t-shirt wearing, trailer dweller thinking otherwise," so I'll just ascribe this position of ignorance to a make-believe majority.

If Joe has a negative opinion of grappling then that is what will be propagated throughout our culture. In that sense, Joe's opinion matters.

Gah! Joe doesn't exist. He's a cultural myth... this idea that "most" Americans are "Joe Six Packs" is insulting to most Americans. Hell, even if I were literally named Joe and drank six packs of Coors from a can, I'd be offended that my name is being associated with institutional stupidity, ignorance and willful sloth.

Seriously... I would never suggest that any country, particularly one as geographically large and diverse as the USA, can be boiled down to the equivalent of a single stereotype. Particularly one that is used synonymously with negativity. That's like equating the 'average' Canadian to "Bob the Flannel Shirt Guy, eh?" and meaning it.

Of course, if you want to keep your mad skillz as a secret weapon to use against the next eedjit that challenges you and don't mind classes being smaller than small and on a word-of-mouth basis, well, then Joe having the wrong info might be a good plan after all. As a friend of mine says, "Good Silat."

It's where I go for Judo. Going there tonight, in fact.


Well, I guess that's where we disagree. Ah well. Pistols at dawn?

I'm not sure what you're driving at with this. I don't want to keep anything from anyone.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am seeing quite a few people I would classify as unskilled starting grappling programs. Some even just going to a weekend seminar and walla they are a grappling coach. Mcdojo's are on the grappling band wagon and of course they will only have their people competing in closed tournament's.

 

[lklawson]

I disagree. Joe Six Pack is a work of fiction trotted out by people who are arguing a position on behalf of a make believe majority. Think about it this way... whenever anyone mentions "joe six pack" they're talking about a group of people of which they are not a part. And it's commonly used to bring up, without anything more than anecdotal evidence, a perceived, uninformed opinion. Sort of a, "I wouldn't ever do xy or z, but I can imagine some dumb, dirty t-shirt wearing, trailer dweller thinking otherwise," so I'll just ascribe this position of ignorance to a make-believe majority.Gah! Joe doesn't exist. He's a cultural myth... this idea that "most" Americans are "Joe Six Packs" is insulting to most Americans. Hell, even if I were literally named Joe and drank six packs of Coors from a can, I'd be offended that my name is being associated with institutional stupidity, ignorance and willful sloth.

It looks like we have a different definition of what "Joe Six Pack" is. I don't know why, to you, "Joe" is a slothful, torpid, waste of skin, but that's not how I have ever heard the term used, and particularly not how I've ever used it.

Perhaps we should jetison the term "Joe Six Pack" and, instead, use the term, "The Common Man" or "The Average Person." That's who I'm talking about.

So, anyway, back to my point, if "The Average Person" has a negative opinion of grappling because of McDojos, that tarnishes the reputation of otherwise reputable schools. It pushes down interest and enrolement, makes it harder for qualified instructors to gain students and keep the doors open, makes it more difficult for reputable schools to maintain their own equipment and facilities, and helps to push "the real deal" into obscurity and irrelevance.

I've seen other examples. For instance, Fencing. The vast majority of Fencing in the mind of "The Average Person" is Olympic Sport Fencing, far far divorced from Classical and Historic fencing. To the Average Person, "fencers" wear gay looking white leotards, funny steel mesh helmets, and flick whippy car antenae at each other. To "The Average Person," fencing is the sport of upper crust snobs to a large degree and, outside of Zoro reruns, has nothing to do with actual swords and real fights. Classical and Historical Salles have to fight to survive and contend against this old, if slowly changing, stereotype.

I could cite other examples but I think you get the gist. The general public perception matters.

Well, anyway, I'm rambling on way too much and drifting far afield here so I think I'd better let it go.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

It looks like we have a different definition of what "Joe Six Pack" is. I don't know why, to you, "Joe" is a slothful, torpid, waste of skin, but that's not how I have ever heard the term used, and particularly not how I've ever used it.

Perhaps we should jetison the term "Joe Six Pack" and, instead, use the term, "The Common Man" or "The Average Person." That's who I'm talking about.

No problem. I said at the beginning that it was an aside and specific to your term. I know what you meant... but that term is one I find particularly insulting. Do a quick google and you'll shortly find that the commonly understood definition of the term is much closer to mine than yours. Joe Six Pack is intended to be disparaging, bringing to mind a guy swilling a 6pack in the evening. It's akin to calling someone trailer trash or a redneck. While some people embrace the term, the connotations are still negative.

To be clear, I do understand that you meant John Q Public, Everyman, The Average Joe and all of that. Like I said, I was just going off on a tangent about that particular phrase. It's a pet peeve.

So, anyway, back to my point, if "The Average Person" has a negative opinion of grappling because of McDojos, that tarnishes the reputation of otherwise reputable schools. It pushes down interest and enrolement, makes it harder for qualified instructors to gain students and keep the doors open, makes it more difficult for reputable schools to maintain their own equipment and facilities, and helps to push "the real deal" into obscurity and irrelevance.

I've seen other examples. For instance, Fencing. The vast majority of Fencing in the mind of "The Average Person" is Olympic Sport Fencing, far far divorced from Classical and Historic fencing. To the Average Person, "fencers" wear gay looking white leotards, funny steel mesh helmets, and flick whippy car antenae at each other. To "The Average Person," fencing is the sport of upper crust snobs to a large degree and, outside of Zoro reruns, has nothing to do with actual swords and real fights. Classical and Historical Salles have to fight to survive and contend against this old, if slowly changing, stereotype.

I could cite other examples but I think you get the gist. The general public perception matters.

Well, anyway, I'm rambling on way too much and drifting far afield here so I think I'd better let it go.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

All of this might happen, but as I said, I doubt it. We'll see McDojos, but I would be surprised if the cycle for BJJ deviates significantly from what we've seen in Judo over the last several decades.

 

[lklawson]

All of this might happen, but as I said, I doubt it. We'll see McDojos, but I would be surprised if the cycle for BJJ deviates significantly from what we've seen in Judo over the last several decades.

First, my PERSONAL opinion closely parallels yours on this matter. Second, I hope that we're both right.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[LoneRider]

Do most good schools allow prospective students to observe their lessons and thus get a feel for how the school operates?

 

[lklawson]

Do most good schools allow prospective students to observe their lessons and thus get a feel for how the school operates?

Yes. Absolutely and without reservation YES!

If a school will not let you watch a few classes from the sidelines this should raise lots and lots of red flags. If they want you to sign up and pay cash before you an glimse their super secret techiques, this should raise lots and lots of red flags. Particularly, nay, ESPECIALLY with grappling schools. There are some cultures that sort of require super-secrecy around their martial arts (Indonesian Silat is one where it seems to be slightly more prevalent, but even then there are enough Silat schools that you should be able to find one that will let you watch a class or two). However, Judo, BJJ, CaCC, etc. are all from cultures, or have adapted culturally, where you put it on the mat and there's no secrets, just hard work and skill.

That said, it is not unheard of for a school to require new students to take an introductory "New Student" or "Orientation" type course for a few weeks before joining the general student body (though I've never heard of it in grappling schools).

So yes, in my opinion, if a grappling school won't let you observe a few classes before joining in, run. Get out. Politely, but get out.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

You should be able to watch. This happens regularly at my school.

Your first class at my school would be free. Our instructor usually has you do warmups with the class and then a blue belt or higher will go over the drills (hip escapes, rolls, technical standup and such), basic positioning, a basic guard pass (usually a knee over pass). Then, if you have no previous grappling experience, you watch the sparring in the final 1/2 hour or so. It's good exposure to the school, keeps you safe and gives you a good workout for your first class.

I think most schools are like this, although some I'm sure will have you spar at the first class.

 

[LoneRider]

Thanks for the input guys. I figured not allowing one to observe a class is a red flag to avoid.

 

[matt.m]

Ya know all the bully dogpile stuff I saw in high school wrestling doesn't apply in BJJ gyms. I am here to tell ya that unless the instructor is a hack then there will be no monkey business.

 

[Steve]

Ya know all the bully dogpile stuff I saw in high school wrestling doesn't apply in BJJ gyms. I am here to tell ya that unless the instructor is a hack then there will be no monkey business.

And, I'm not sure if I said this or not... but that video was clearly staged. I'm not sure who was in it or why it was made, but that wasn't a candid encounter.

 

[cooker1]

The BJJ schools I've been around don't really bully older people. We are treated respectfully.