Bully instructors

[Supra Vijai]

Absolutely. But it's not necessarily just between the teacher and students - you build up a sense of trust and closeness to any of your partners since you are literally putting your health on the line playing uke for each other, trusting in them to be sensitive and in control enough to back off right when you reach the edge between pain and injury. For this reason, you'll usually never see beginners paired up with each other - they're placed with a senior student instead.

See I thought (and not discounting what you said at all) that it was because the senior students were epected to have base mechanics of the art right already. When I partner up with someone of equal rank the attacking intensity is at one level, when with a senior it's different and when with a new student it's another again. I saw that as the ability of the Uke to throw the correct punch or attack with the appropriate mindset of the technique. Things like a straight punch with a vertical fist from someone who is more experienced is usally actually straight and to target whereas with a beginner it can be thrown as a cross and the targetting may be off. By partnering the new guys with seniors you allow to a degree a learning and teaching system whereby the juniors can learn from their more experienced partners who are learning the more intricate details of the tech, thereby allowing the Sensei to offer advice and refine techs for the seniors.

Just my take on it, please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[mook jong man]

He's not a bully.



Now this is a bully

 

[Flea]

Yeah, I never understood the appeal of that show at all. Once I came across a video of his on Stumble where showed how to make cream of broccoli soup, and I kept waiting for him to have a big blowout. It was surreal to see him take a spoonful and smile.

 

[dancingalone]

See I thought (and not discounting what you said at all) that it was because the senior students were epected to have base mechanics of the art right already. When I partner up with someone of equal rank the attacking intensity is at one level, when with a senior it's different and when with a new student it's another again. I saw that as the ability of the Uke to throw the correct punch or attack with the appropriate mindset of the technique. Things like a straight punch with a vertical fist from someone who is more experienced is usally actually straight and to target whereas with a beginner it can be thrown as a cross and the targetting may be off. By partnering the new guys with seniors you allow to a degree a learning and teaching system whereby the juniors can learn from their more experienced partners who are learning the more intricate details of the tech, thereby allowing the Sensei to offer advice and refine techs for the seniors.

Just my take on it, please correct me if I'm wrong

That, too.

 

[Steve]

Thanks for your perspectives everyone.

I guess it's just outside of my experience; I've never seen that level of force applied and held for more than a moment.

It is certainly an eloquent demonstration of how effective any MA can be. I do think that learning can take place with less volume though, but clearly the uke is used to it and no one else seems to object either.

But you're right Elder, it's not for me. I'm okay with that - I don't think it makes me a wimp. It means that I have a different learning style from you, and perhaps I train with a different set of priorities. To each their own.

Not if you expect to learn the technique beyond a cerebral, technical level. Transferring knowledge to application means developing the timing and context necessary to be able to do something outside of a perfect simulation. A technique either works or it doesn't. There's no almost. And if people aren't being realistic about things, you might go years learning techniques that don't work.

 

[sgtmac_46]

He's not a bully.



Now this is a bully

No, that's just passion..........if she hadn't been an incompetent and screwed up the souffle, she wouldn't be getting yelled at!

 

[Bruno@MT]

No, that's just passion..........if she hadn't been an incompetent and screwed up the souffle, she wouldn't be getting yelled at!

I was hesitant to react to that picture, but you beat me to it
The only way to run a kitchen is a dictatorship. Kind of like the military.
He demands perfection and does not accept anything less.
If he did, he would not be a 3 star chef.

I'm surprised noone mentioned this guy yet

[yt]kTMGMOTQvE4[/yt]

 

[Bruno@MT]

Not if you expect to learn the technique beyond a cerebral, technical level. Transferring knowledge to application means developing the timing and context necessary to be able to do something outside of a perfect simulation. A technique either works or it doesn't. There's no almost. And if people aren't being realistic about things, you might go years learning techniques that don't work.

What he said.

 

[K831]

When I think of bullying I think of someone negatively enforcing their will or power on someone else...

That said, bullying isn't about the amount of roughness or pain involved, it's more about how all parties involved feel about it.

I would say, if the uke in this clip didn't want to be uke, and felt pressured or manipulated into being demonstrated on, then sure it's bullying. (I don't think that's the case, just saying).

On the other hand, the instructor could have been much more aggressive, and so long as the uke is ok with it, then no bullying.

As an example, in my Kenpo class, when the instructor demonstrates, you often end up in a heap. He hits really really hard, to demonstrate mechanics, timing etc, and to illustrate the while many of the little strikes in kenpo are viewed as "slaps" they will straight drop the biggest guy if the mechanics are correct. As others have mentioned, this has to be felt to be believed and understood. I have learned to hit hard precisely because I have been hit hard.

Having said that, there are long time members in my class who just don't deal with it well psychologically or physically, so they aren't ever the uke. Same with technique line, it is common knowledge who is an is not ok with getting hit hard, and its a trade. I want to know I can deliver the technique with power, and I know who will let me hit them hard, and they know in trade, they can hit me hard. It's worth it to each of us to take the hits, in order to have the chance to deliver them. Some may think the bruises on my ribs, thighs chest etc are indicative of abuse or out of control karate tough guys. I just call it effective training. But, we are all on the same page, thus no bullying. Many martial artists don't want to deal with that and that's fine, we don't hit them hard (and it shows in their Kenpo, to be honest).... many of us don't want to "hope" we can drop someone and make a technique work in a real fight, we want to know it long before hand.

 

[Flea]

Bruno, thanks for posting that. I'd never seen Full Metal Jacket before! That guy was like a military Sue Sylvester. :flame:

 

[mook jong man]

No, that's just passion..........if she hadn't been an incompetent and screwed up the souffle, she wouldn't be getting yelled at!

That's great , but would you let him speak to your wife or daughter like that ?

I'm surprised no one has knocked the dickhead out yet.

 

[chinto]

I did not see bulling, but demonstration with control. The instructor could have really injured the uki if he had wanted to. the uki knew how to go with that motion to not be hurt. I have been uki for things and it can mean a bit of pain but its amazing how somethings are much easier to learn if they are demonstrated on you by some one more skilled then you are. This includes joint manipulations, locks, strikes or throws and also brakes ( demonstrated with complete control, and not of course an actual braking of the bone or joint. ) an example is what is known as BROKE KUMITE.

 

[Supra Vijai]

That's great , but would you let him speak to your wife or daughter like that ?

I'm surprised no one has knocked the dickhead out yet.

I'm pretty sure sgtmac was joking, hence the winky face lol. Obviously no one wants to be treated that badly, regardless of how "deserved" it was

This includes joint manipulations, locks, strikes or throws and also brakes ( demonstrated with complete control, and not of course an actual braking of the bone or joint. ) an example is what is known as BROKE KUMITE.

Wait what's BROKE KUMITE? Not suprisingly I've never heard of it having never done any Kumite myself. Is it like handicap matches where you can't use one hand or whatever? The other thing is that going by the previous posts by those will a lot more experience than me alone, the point of a lot if not all of those joint manipulations, locks and throws is to get a break. The fact that there is control being demonstrated is the only reason the break doesn't happen. So how you do you demonstrate all of those and then demonstrate a break seperately without actually breaking someone's arm or leg or whatever?

 

[sgtmac_46]

That's great , but would you let him speak to your wife or daughter like that ?

I'm surprised no one has knocked the dickhead out yet.

I was half-joking........but............

They don't have to work there, it's a voluntary choice. And i'm sure the rewards for putting up with it far outweigh what one gets working for a 'nicer boss'.

Quite frankly, what Ramsey does is no different than the R. Lee Ermey clip.........it's a boot camp, of sorts, to determine who has what it takes to thrive in that environment........he's, of course, putting on a show.........but the person who wins gets a contract as the head chef in one of his kitchens, a position i'm sure is not only prestigious but economically rewarding.

And i'd be careful about taking a swing at Ramsay.......he has a bit of that working-class British brawler about him.........the guy was a pro-footballer before injuring his knee, and grew up in a working class Scottish home with a beligerent drunken Scottish father..........so, yeah, i'm pretty sure he can fight.

 

[Chris Parker]

When I think of bullying I think of someone negatively enforcing their will or power on someone else...

That said, bullying isn't about the amount of roughness or pain involved, it's more about how all parties involved feel about it.

I would say, if the uke in this clip didn't want to be uke, and felt pressured or manipulated into being demonstrated on, then sure it's bullying. (I don't think that's the case, just saying).

On the other hand, the instructor could have been much more aggressive, and so long as the uke is ok with it, then no bullying.

As an example, in my Kenpo class, when the instructor demonstrates, you often end up in a heap. He hits really really hard, to demonstrate mechanics, timing etc, and to illustrate the while many of the little strikes in kenpo are viewed as "slaps" they will straight drop the biggest guy if the mechanics are correct. As others have mentioned, this has to be felt to be believed and understood. I have learned to hit hard precisely because I have been hit hard.

Having said that, there are long time members in my class who just don't deal with it well psychologically or physically, so they aren't ever the uke. Same with technique line, it is common knowledge who is an is not ok with getting hit hard, and its a trade. I want to know I can deliver the technique with power, and I know who will let me hit them hard, and they know in trade, they can hit me hard. It's worth it to each of us to take the hits, in order to have the chance to deliver them. Some may think the bruises on my ribs, thighs chest etc are indicative of abuse or out of control karate tough guys. I just call it effective training. But, we are all on the same page, thus no bullying. Many martial artists don't want to deal with that and that's fine, we don't hit them hard (and it shows in their Kenpo, to be honest).... many of us don't want to "hope" we can drop someone and make a technique work in a real fight, we want to know it long before hand.

Okay, little detour off the topic to a slight tangent here, but this is similar to the way you learn to be a hypnotherapist. Part of the ethical training method is that you don't do something with a client unless you have experienced it yourself. The reason is pretty simple, when messing inside someone's head, going in without awareness of the potential responces and reactions inside them is a very easy way to seriously screw them up. In short, it's a reverse golden rule, don't do anything to anyone that you haven't already had done to you!

It's the same idea in martial arts, for much the same reason. If you do something without having experienced it, there's a good chance you won't understand it's limits, let alone the limits of the person you're performing it on. You learn by doing, but you also learn by experiencing, or recieving. Both Uke and Tori are essential parts of your training, although a lot of people tend to forget about Uke much of the time... pity.

 

[Bruno@MT]

That's great , but would you let him speak to your wife or daughter like that ?

I'm surprised no one has knocked the dickhead out yet.

That depends on the context. If my daughter was working in his kitchen, then yes, I would let him speak to her like that in the kitchen. That's a battle she has to fight, if she is working there voluntarily. That's no different from how she would be treated by a drill sergeant if she was in the marines.

 

[Steve]

No, that's just passion..........if she hadn't been an incompetent and screwed up the souffle, she wouldn't be getting yelled at!

Actually, he's a bully and a successful chef. Workplace bullying isn't against the law, but it's very, very common. Any time you see a person in a position of authority humiliating, degrading or intimidating the employees, it's out of line and unnecessary. Workplace bullies often set employees up to fail, assigning more work than can be accomplished, marginalizing and isolating specific employees, swearing at them, making them the butt of practical jokes. It's short of a hostile work environment and also not typically a form of discrimination or harrassmant and it's not illegal. But it's dickish and, IMO, people shouldn't have to put up with it.

This reminded me of a Jon Stewart interview with Mario Batali. While the interview is pretty funny, the relevant part starts at around 3:45 but the specific quote is at 4:05: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-may-6-2010/mario-batali

 

[Bruno@MT]

Actually, he's a bully and a successful chef. Workplace bullying isn't against the law, but it's very, very common. Any time you see a person in a position of authority humiliating, degrading or intimidating the employees, it's out of line and unnecessary. Workplace bullies often set employees up to fail, assigning more work than can be accomplished, marginalizing and isolating specific employees, swearing at them, making them the butt of practical jokes. It's short of a hostile work environment and also not typically a form of discrimination or harrassmant and it's not illegal. But it's dickish and, IMO, people shouldn't have to put up with it.

This reminded me of a Jon Stewart interview with Mario Batali. While the interview is pretty funny, the relevant part starts at around 3:45 but the specific quote is at 4:05: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-may-6-2010/mario-batali

I once viewed a program where an entusiastic kids was given tuition by a star chef for the purpose of competing against 2 professional non-star chefs. He was apt at it and actually won. But the thing I remember most is that halfway through the program, his entire kitchen team (which were professional sous-chefs and kitchen personnell) came up to him and asked him to command them, rather than ask them.

They told him that he was being way too nice, asking them to do things as if they were doing him a favor. They told him that a kitchen should be run like a chain of command, and the man in charge gives out orders. And because of that, they asked him to command them.

 

[Steve]

I once viewed a program where an entusiastic kids was given tuition by a star chef for the purpose of competing against 2 professional non-star chefs. He was apt at it and actually won. But the thing I remember most is that halfway through the program, his entire kitchen team (which were professional sous-chefs and kitchen personnell) came up to him and asked him to command them, rather than ask them.

They told him that he was being way too nice, asking them to do things as if they were doing him a favor. They told him that a kitchen should be run like a chain of command, and the man in charge gives out orders. And because of that, they asked him to command them.

There's a giant difference between being a decisive leader and being a bully. It simply doesn't take yelling, humiliation and intimidation to get people to respect your leadership and get the best out of a group of people.

Or, putting it a different way, isn't the distinction between the OP video of Kazuo Chiba Sensei and Chef Ramsey pretty glaring?

 

[yorkshirelad]

There's a giant difference between being a decisive leader and being a bully. It simply doesn't take yelling, humiliation and intimidation to get people to respect your leadership and get the best out of a group of people.

Or, putting it a different way, isn't the distinction between the OP video of Kazuo Chiba Sensei and Chef Ramsey pretty glaring?

Yes, Gordon Ramsey has obviously no leadership qualities. He's only the most successful restauranteur in the world with 3 Michelin stars, and only two of his personally trained chefs have earned Michelin stars.