bujinkan for combat ??

[ElfTengu]

I can see both your points of view here. Yes sparring is only one aspect of training in preparation for a real fight as JF has said, but I also agree with Jarrod in that of those aspects, it is probably the closest, because of the elements of the unknown, resistance, getting hit, and being thrown in ways that you are not expecting as well as the psychological processes that make you aware that failure to act appropriately will result in pain, and the Kolb cycle of learning comes into play. All of these rely on you responding appropriately without conscious thought, including reacting to being hit, moving to evade or close distance, and applying the correct ukemi whatever the takedown.

But you will only respond correctly if you have done all the drills and background work because otherwise sparring can be like jumping from an aeroplane and only finding out halfway down that a parachute might have been a good idea.

The biggest danger of sparring is that it opens up a part of the brain that likes fighting, and can cause an imbalance in the 'flight or fight' safeguards that every human being inherently has. The adrenaline rush, the general manliness of it all, and the fact that winning is great but being a good loser is also deemed a positive thing. The main mistake that many taijutsu people make when sparring is to thrown all their taijutsu out of the window and start mimicking kickboxers and MMA fighters, bobbing, weaving and jabbing in ways that are not taijutsu. The other thing is that we don't do much in the way of offensive technique, although everything that we do defensively can also be applied OFFfensively, we just don't train like that generally.

Finally, if someone comes into your ninjutsu dojo and wants to 'roll' in what is likely to be a fairly serious altercation, just put on your shuko and say "Sure"!

 

[Cryozombie]

Finally, if someone comes into your ninjutsu dojo and wants to 'roll' in what is likely to be a fairly serious altercation, just put on your shuko and say "Sure"!

And, here is the essence of why I think all these arguments of "Art X is better prepared for real fighting than art Y" and why these kinds of discussions piss me off.

Ok, sure, your typical MMA school tends to do more work on a "resisting opponent" right from the get-go, without worrying too much about building a skill set FIRST... they do it simultaiously. No problems with that, it works for their art. HOWEVER... by the same token, I personally have never seen any MMA schools where the average student isnt training in a pair of shorts (often the skin tight, I dunno, Ill call em wrestling shorts) and a tank top... So what happens when they roll on the street and are all prepped to take down that guy and he uses their jacket to choke them out... somthing they don't/rarely train for because it was banned from the rules of UFC because it was effective and too easy to do... oops. And I don't see too many judo guys practicing getting punched either... most of what I have seen is all Kumi Uchi type techniques, so yeah... they are used to fast movements and hard throws, but can they REALLY take a hit that much better?

There are things we train to do in our arts (whatever arts we are talking about) that make them work for us or not. Are there bad schools/bad teachers in the Buj? Sure. Are there also bad ones in... well, any art? Yup.

The problem as I see it, and who the hell knows I could be way off base here, is that many of these competitive arts, because they are competitive, stress the competitive aspects from a very early point in their training, whereas many Buj schools do not. (And perhaps this is also true of Genbukan, Jinekan, etc, I dont know) So then you see SLOW Videos of guys working Kata (which are NOT FREAKING COMBAT TECHNIQUES, THEY ARE KATA!) to get the moves down, or to teach the kata, or demo a Kata, and guys who are used to not doing "techniques" but rather just used to scrapping see that stuff, and go "Durrr, that wouldnt work in a fight". Yeah? Ya think? No ****. Its a KATA. Of course it wouldn't!

Where you run into trouble... is when you get these guys who DON'T REALIZE that, and think KATA is a COMBAT TECHNIQUE and never move past the point of learning the kata, and never learn to break out the mechanics and movement Ideas the kata are actually designed to teach.

But then again, I'm only a 1st Kyu, so I could be wayyy off base here... its all just my opinion.

 

[jarrod]

not arguing with you here, but could you tell me what the purpose of kata is if it's not to instill combat techniques?

i'm far from a kata technician, so i'm just asking.

jf

 

[ElfTengu]

And, here is the essence of why I think all these arguments of "Art X is better prepared for real fighting than art Y" and why these kinds of discussions piss me off.

Perhaps I should use smileys more, the shuko thing was a joke, or tongue in cheek at least.

But joking aside, it is in my humble opinion that it is the 'ninjutsu' parts of the Bujinkan which are our best chance against superior opposition. You will never get any of our shihan volunteering to show off their muto dori skills against a Japanese kenjutsu or iai master, but add metsubishi, acid, shuriken and the like into the mix and the odds don't seem as far fetched. Peace through superior firepower, never take a knife to a gun fight, the end justifies the means etc etc.

I never said art x was better than art y, and you won't always have something pointy to hand which which to stab repeatedly to the kidneys when a grappler takes you to the ground. You may have to rely on your unarmed skills and they had better be top notch. I agree that modern MMA arts do not sufficiently take into consideration the addition of factors such as weapons and multiple attackers, but even though we taijutsu practitioners do bear these things in mind as part of our normal training, our training methodologies are inferior due to a lack of stress conditions. This leads to the very real possibility that even though they don't train for anywhere near the variety of conditions in which a real attack might take place, an MMAist might do better because of their training methods in terms of rough and tumble.

And don't bring rank into it. There are fantastic green belts and terrible black belts in this world, and unfortunately the latter seem to exist in vast numbers and this is how this thread came into being. Opinion is opinion, and this is not the Shidoshikai, it is a public forum and everyone's points of view are valid.

 

[Cryozombie]

IMO, it is to teach the mechanics of and understanding of technique.

I FEEL that If you look at a kata, and say "well, that wont work because an opponent wont just leave his arm hanging out there like that" (a common reason the bujinkan is seen as "fake" and/or useless) then you (the person, not YOU specifically) missedthe point of the kata. The kata wasn't to say "Do A, then B, then C, and Voila! You win!" but rather to instill the knowlage that say Doing A works because Blah, B works When, and C can be used IF... kinda thing... the kata strings the pieces together, but in a fight you might use A, C, C, and A again... and never touch part "B" Or you may do B because thats what gets handed to you and it finishes the fight altogether and thats it.

I dunno if I am explaining that well. I think about it, in extrasimplistic terms as say a Taekwondo Kata. No Taekwondo student, in a fight is going to Block Up, Block Down, Reverse Punch, Turn Left, Reverse Punch, Turn Right, Reverse Punch, face Front, Block Up, Block Down, bow. But Doing the Kata is going to help teach him To do the individual techniques of Block Up, Block Down, and Reverse Punch...

 

[Cryozombie]

Perhaps I should use smileys more, the shuko thing was a joke, or tongue in cheek at least.

But joking aside, it is in my humble opinion that it is the 'ninjutsu' parts of the Bujinkan which are our best chance against superior opposition. You will never get any of our shihan volunteering to show off their muto dori skills against a Japanese kenjutsu or iai master, but add metsubishi, acid, shuriken and the like into the mix and the odds don't seem as far fetched. Peace through superior firepower, never take a knife to a gun fight, the end justifies the means etc etc.

Nah man, I GET that, which is why I said what I said... it proves the point that certain elements of each art are best suited to what they do, which is why I dont think any of them are "more combat efficient"... because combat is a fluid thing that will rarley be the same from encounter to encounter... so really, I was AGREEING with you.

 

[ElfTengu]

not arguing with you here, but could you tell me what the purpose of kata is if it's not to instill combat techniques?

i'm far from a kata technician, so i'm just asking.

jf

I can't speak for other arts, but in the Bujinkan, kata have different purposes at different levels.

The novice mimics what he sees, or what he thinks he sees, and guided by a teacher he eventually comes to fit those movements with his natural physiology (and hopefully enhances his physiology along the way).

The student starts to extract principles from the kata, learning variations and experiencing different ways in which different things can be used, but still works on perfecting (something which will never actually be achieved) the basic kata as laid down by Soke, because if you don't have all the component parts and principles pretty much nailed, you can't go onto henka (variations) or what karateka call bunkai (application).

At higher levels the practitioner does the same but better, and looks to his peers and superiors for further insights.

People generally accept that they will never ever ever use the kata technique in the way that they do in the kata, because a real attack will never come like it does in kata, and a clear start and end to the proceedings is often never discernible, unlike a kata.

To summise I would say that it is not combat techniques which are instilled per se, but bits of techniques, principles and possibilities. In a real fight the taijutsu technician is all about evade evade evade until an opportunity presents itself to apply something like a technique or combination of techniques. The opportunity may come quickly but it may not. He does not seek a quick one-punch end to the proceedings because this approach leaves too many openings and is difficult to back out of once committed, but moves in such a way as to apply the nastiness only at the moments when it is safe to do so.

 

[stephen]

not arguing with you here, but could you tell me what the purpose of kata is if it's not to instill combat techniques?

i'm far from a kata technician, so i'm just asking.

jf

I see kata as examples of movement. No more or less special than any other example that coulld have been written down.

I see them sorta like you might see certain problems in a math textbook, and the teacher's edition may have certain answers and ways of deriving those answers.

The important part is being able to solve the problem, or should I say, the important part is being able to solve a similiar, but currently unknown, problem in the future.

Being presented the kata shows you that indeed problems like that can be solved with the correct application of concepts offered in the course and that you should learn and be able to apply the concepts behind it in order to be able to solve the problem come test time.

There are not many times in school where a teacher will mark down 2+3=5 because you wrote 3+2=5.

The big question is: okay, so how do you know your learning the concepts and can apply it? That's what teachers are for.

Later, when maybe your teacher isn't always around (but you still need one somewhere) you can check your understanding by being able to apply the concepts to unseen problems, creatively generate solutions to problems never before covered, and also, I tend to think, be able to create drills and excercises that isolate those concepts.

 

[ElfTengu]

Well put Stephen, apart from using Maths as an example.

(only because I hate maths).

I would prefer using music as an analogy, you learn to read music, to play an instrument, to learn to play other instruments better because you already knew how to play one and read music, and you learn to perform in duets and trios and then on the day you go into a room and jam with people you have never met you instinctively do exactly what you need to do to harmonise with what the other musicians are doing, even though you had no idea what that was going to be before you walked into the room.

 

[Ronnin]

Good points, but we really shouldn't make excuses. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is getting bigger and bigger without any sign of the same quality control problems. One day it may be bigger than the Bujinkan or X-kan community as a whole, in fact I would like to know the current figures.
.

THe reason for BJJ's ability is not the art itself, but the method of training. These guys go to thier gym everyday, or however often, and train in thier techniques as we do, BUT then they go to thier "ring, or mat, whichever they have in thier gym, and FIGHT. That's the kee. They fight everyday. So when they get to the street and there's a problem, they're very well prepared. I think the X-Kan should begin to utilize this more. This method is in every type of realistic form of combat training ie; military wether it's hand to hand or weapons training. Of course we're not going to shoot with real rounds, but we put VERY high velocity paint rounds in which hurt like hell, not like the crap *** round ones, so therefor you're scared to get hit. The X-kan stops at the techniqes, then they talk about how to use it real.

 

[Archangel M]

Knowing what its like to really take a punch..or deliver a real punch on another human is a huge advantage in a fight. Many martial artists have never really dealt with either.

 

[Ronnin]

Knowing what its like to really take a punch..or deliver a real punch on another human is a huge advantage in a fight. Many martial artists have never really dealt with either.

Exactly!
Once you have a REAL punch thrown at you, and you bust out in Ichimonji, you'll realize "crap, I went to deep in my kamae, and now I'm out of position to do anything, but it always works in training".

 

[Kreth]

The X-kan stops at the techniqes, then they talk about how to use it real.

You misspelled "In the dojos I've been to..."

 

[Ronnin]

You misspelled "In the dojos I've been to..."

hahaha I know my bad, I was gonna put "MOST dojo's dont train in this manner", I know some do, but so few compared to the majority. That's why I left it out. I know of 1 dojo that's practices a type of Randori or free fighting, and I'm in LA, but even that is still quite controlled.

 

[ElfTengu]

You misspelled "In the dojos I've been to..."

I think most of us would have to admit he is right though, and sufficient numbers of dojo do train like that, enough to warrant generalisation even.

I've been to enough dojos and seminars over the years to know that the percentages are pretty much the same as those on youtube in terms of lameness versus realistic training methodologies.

But then perhaps we shouldn't put so much on the dojo, I mean, there are only so many hours of dojo time in a week, most dojo only have one 2 hour session a week and the 'syllabus' is so vast there just isn't time to learn/teach everything and fit in some randori as well.

If your dojo is one of these, make the effort to fit in some more gung ho training with fellow students in between classes.

I am looking forward to the day I can start a shibu, because, although I am in no real hurry to teach or instruct, it would be good to have a group of people to practice on/with and be able to decide what we are going to work on so I can address my weaknesses. Mind you, I am going to be the father of twins in the next few weeks so I am hoping to cleverly manipulate my offspring into wanting to learn the art!

 

[stephen]

the 'syllabus' is so vast there just isn't time to learn/teach everything and fit in some randori as well.

What's a sly-a-busss? Never seen one....None in my dojo....

I tend to start class with, 'What do you guys want to do?' The funny thing about it is that I almost always also have a plan for what I want to cover. Funny thing is that, for the most part, we can do whatever and still cover the 'plan'.

Me (thinking): I want to work on shaping space (kukan) and ways of taking it.

Others: Let's work on punching, stuff on the ground, san shin, etc...

Me: Okay, that's what I was thinking.....

I am looking forward to the day I can start a shibu, because, although I am in no real hurry to teach or instruct, it would be good to have a group of people to practice on/with and be able to decide what we are going to work on so I can address my weaknesses.

Why not get together with other people from the dojo now? You don't have to put up a webpage and rank people, just hang and train (and maybe drink afterwards)!

Mind you, I am going to be the father of twins in the next few weeks so I am hoping to cleverly manipulate my offspring into wanting to learn the art!

Congrats! Let me know if you figure anything out, one day I'll be trying to do the same. My plan right now is to put them into a Judo class when they're young and worry about Bujinkan when they start to get a bit older.

 

[ElfTengu]

What's a sly-a-busss? Never seen one....None in my dojo....

By syllabus I don't mean some kind of Semitic dessert, I mean everything in the Bujinkan that has a name on a densho somewhere (plus all the stuff that doesn't).

I tend to start class with, 'What do you guys want to do?' The funny thing about it is that I almost always also have a plan for what I want to cover. Funny thing is that, for the most part, we can do whatever and still cover the 'plan'.

Me (thinking): I want to work on shaping space (kukan) and ways of taking it.

Others: Let's work on punching, stuff on the ground, san shin, etc...

Me: Okay, that's what I was thinking.....

We often get the same opportunity but we all know we need to get the proper stuff down correctly before we can play with it. Sometimes one of the class is just sent out to do something and the rest of the class evolves from whatever that something is.

Why not get together with other people from the dojo now? You don't have to put up a webpage and rank people, just hang and train (and maybe drink afterwards)!.....

The problem with our particular dojo is that it is central to all of us who turn up to train regularly but we are spread out as if at the end of long spokes on a wheel with the dojo being the axle, and most people are in the opposite direction to mine and there is only one person anywhere near me and he is a busy schoolteacher with little free time.

I need to rope some poor unfortunate into my world of ninjas for regular beatings in my back garden!

Congrats! Let me know if you figure anything out, one day I'll be trying to do the same. My plan right now is to put them into a Judo class when they're young and worry about Bujinkan when they start to get a bit older.

I intend to keep all my martial doings as mysterious and intriguing as possible, and try to put them off like that breakfast cereal ad with the clusters. Hook 'em and reel em in, before they find out about football and other mainstream crap to clog up their lives with. My dad tried to force mainstream sports on me and I have memories of having cricket balls whacked at me, and footballs kicked at me and I have a deep seated hatred of those sports now and cannot even watch them at 38 years old!

 

[Ronnin]

Why not get together with other people from the dojo now? You don't have to put up a webpage and rank people, just hang and train (and maybe drink afterwards)!
.

This is perfect, where can i join

 

[ElfTengu]

This is perfect, where can i join

South East England, Kent for Stephen, Sussex for me, but you have to turn up every week, even if you live in America!:uhyeah:

 

[Ronnin]

South East England, Kent for Stephen, Sussex for me, but you have to turn up every week, even if you live in America!:uhyeah:

pshsh.......no problem !!!