bujinkan for combat ??

ElfTengu

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Sorry Stephen, I was sure you organised an event once that was technically in Kent (London borders), and assumed you were based there, but now I think about it, it may have been Manchester Dojo who organised that one, and now I have done my homework I realise that you are actually based in Dundee.:2xBird2:
 

stephen

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Sorry Stephen, I was sure you organised an event once that was technically in Kent (London borders), and assumed you were based there, but now I think about it, it may have been Manchester Dojo who organised that one, and now I have done my homework I realise that you are actually based in Dundee.:2xBird2:


I'm all London all the time. I wasn't aware that there was anything outside of London.

Do you guys have running water?
 

Shizen Shigoku

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I'm not reading through the whole thread, I know what this is getting at.

How about we all just remind our uke to not be lazy, hmm?
 

Bruno@MT

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Good point. I've trained with many people over the years at seminars, and some were shocked if you made even the slightest contact with a punch. A certain now-defunct NYC dojo was notorious for this, IMO.

This is a pet peeve of mine, and something that I repeat over and over to the other newbies when we are doing partner drills. People without MA background sometimes need to mentally adjust to the idea of inflicting pain.

I want them to try and hit me. Speed and power of the attack depends on the skill level on both partners. But the attack should be meant to hit. Otherwise I can't train my defense properly. If I don't react, they should land a blow with whatever it is they are attacking with.

Likewise, if I have to attack, I will do so with the intent to hit them. Again, speed and power depend on the level of us both, but if they stand there, they will get hit.

It's getting better though. Some of them used to apologise when landing even the slightest hit. My stock answer to such apologies (which I learned from a JJ brown belt a long time ago): 'I am not made of sugar, and this is not the flower arrangement 101 class. This is a martial arts class.' sometimes followed by 'don't worry about it. I'll hit you too'
 

Shizen Shigoku

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This is a pet peeve of mine, and something that I repeat over and over to the other newbies when we are doing partner drills. People without MA background sometimes need to mentally adjust to the idea of inflicting pain.

I want them to try and hit me. ...

If it seems like my uke isn't going to hit me (and I can tell the moment they start to move), then I won't move at. When then look on quizzically or ask why I am not attempting the technique, I tell them, "I'm not going to move if you're not going to hit me."
 

kcs

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I think we need to practice randori more and up the intensity. I watched some other bujinkan schools and they practice with intensity. Don't get me wrong there is a lot of dojos that aren't on youtube and they train hard.
 
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Cryozombie

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I want them to try and hit me. Speed and power of the attack depends on the skill level on both partners. But the attack should be meant to hit. Otherwise I can't train my defense properly. If I don't react, they should land a blow with whatever it is they are attacking with.

I don't disagree with you, but at the same time I dont think its always neccessary to make hard contact, or to put the pepper on each blow so to speak. Don't get me wrong I do think it needs to be done... and to be honest with you, when I was bouncing I got hit by a guy, and my reaction wasn't "oh crap I got hit" and panic! it was "Wtf, that dude punched me, the jackass..." as I went after him, and I don't think I could have had that second reaction if I wasn't used to getting hit anyhow... and I think that would be a wakeup call for the guys who never get hit... but I think there's a good balance in there someplace between punching people and tapping them and stopping short depending what is being drilled.


Also, I like to apologise to my partners whenever I hit them. I'm ingraining a habit so I can hit my opponent and make him think it was an accident as I say sorry for doing it, while the next one is coming in. :D

Unless I am training with Kagemusha, in which case I just beat him. hehe.
 

jks9199

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Training at different levels of contact/reality/aliveness/what-have-you is necessary -- and the appropriate level changes at different stages. But the techniques must always be delivered towards the actual position, so that they MUST respond appropriately or feel contact.

At the first stage of learning a new technique, your partner should present the attack at a slow to moderate speed, and with little force. They simply are receiving your defense, and letting you figure it out without headaches and hassles. (This doesn't mean they don't practice good technique or don't throw it to where you are...) As you become more familiar and confident with the technique, the force and speed should increase, until you'll get hurt if you don't respond appropriately. The last stage is adding "unpredictability"; they don't simply let you work the defense, and they can adapt to your defense if they have an opportunity.
 

Aiki Lee

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It's getting better though. Some of them used to apologise when landing even the slightest hit. My stock answer to such apologies (which I learned from a JJ brown belt a long time ago): 'I am not made of sugar, and this is not the flower arrangement 101 class. This is a martial arts class.' sometimes followed by 'don't worry about it. I'll hit you too'

I like this. I think I will use them too.
 

Hudson69

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I think I might have already replied to this one so forgive me but I, from my experience see the bujinkan as a slow to be useful art/system and lacks the emphasis on any randori or sparring additionally held back by its over emphasis on archaic weaponry.

Now to explain a little further I believe that some people will be able to use some of the training earlier than others just because people are different (duh!) but once your are at the 2nd or 1st kyu or higher you should be able to get away with holding your own. I think the fault with this is the lack of randori or sparring and I really believe that if you put a student of a more street/MMA/made for combat "now" art against a BBT student the BBT student will more than likely lose primarily because you will have a shadow boxer going up against someone who has applied his/her skills at speed and also knows what it is like to get hit and knows their pain/endurance threshold.

My opinion is based off of having been in three different Bujinkan schools (thanks to the military), having been a Kenpo student and a LE Defensive Tactics Instructor. I think that the "ninja" training really pays off in the side skills (ukemi & taihenjutsu) you get along with the taijutsu.

Would anyone who reads this please send me a response to how they feel about it; my opinion is not set in stone and I would really like to know how others feel about this.
 

Bruno@MT

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There are 2 sides to this argument.

On one side are the people who say that you can't get good experience without sparring. And in a way they are right, because without sparring it takes a long time to become good enough to hold your own.

On the other are the people who say no to sparring because it makes the student get bad habits. Instead of applying proper techniques, they do what they can to win, through force instead of technique. On top of that is the issue that sparring comes with rules, and you learn to fight within those rules to the point where you no longer consider things outside the rules.

There is something to be said for both arguments. I am somewhere in the middle. In Genbukan, you don't have randori until you have been in it for quite a while, and even then the point of sparring is not to win, but to learn to apply your techniques.
 

jks9199

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I think I might have already replied to this one so forgive me but I, from my experience see the bujinkan as a slow to be useful art/system and lacks the emphasis on any randori or sparring additionally held back by its over emphasis on archaic weaponry.

Now to explain a little further I believe that some people will be able to use some of the training earlier than others just because people are different (duh!) but once your are at the 2nd or 1st kyu or higher you should be able to get away with holding your own. I think the fault with this is the lack of randori or sparring and I really believe that if you put a student of a more street/MMA/made for combat "now" art against a BBT student the BBT student will more than likely lose primarily because you will have a shadow boxer going up against someone who has applied his/her skills at speed and also knows what it is like to get hit and knows their pain/endurance threshold.

My opinion is based off of having been in three different Bujinkan schools (thanks to the military), having been a Kenpo student and a LE Defensive Tactics Instructor. I think that the "ninja" training really pays off in the side skills (ukemi & taihenjutsu) you get along with the taijutsu.

Would anyone who reads this please send me a response to how they feel about it; my opinion is not set in stone and I would really like to know how others feel about this.
Caveat -- I have not trained in the Bujinkan or any of the related schools. I confess to a longtime curiosity and fascination with them, though.

I think the defensive skills in the Bujinkan are slower to develop than some other arts. They seem more like aikido in that respect, compared to perhaps jujustu or karate. I think some of the techniques are probably able to be taught quickly -- but most take time. They're more advanced/intricate/complex...

If I were to draw a spectrum of hand-to-hand defensive skills, I'd put LE DT, a lot military hand-to-hand, and similar stuff at the bottom. They consist of a small collection of easily learned, easily retained, large-muscle techniques that can be taught quickly without extensive time, and generally lend themselves to structured, large group training. Often, these can almost be seen as a subset of the skills in one or more martial arts. They can be learned to a functional level in a matter of weeks of dedicated practice.

The middle section would include things like karate, capoeria, many of the Japanese traditional budo systems, as well as many of the Western martial arts, like fencing, boxing, wrestling, and the like. These systems have a larger catalog of techniques, and training often puts significant emphasis on variants of sparring. You can learn these, to reasonable degree of skill, in several months of good, hard training.

At the high end, I'd put styles like aikido and the X-kan systems. They can take a lot longer to learn; they often include emphasis on movement and positioning and "strategic" thinking and approaches to a fight more than the tactical approaches of the training methods lower in the spectrum.
 

CHAOS

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OK. Im just getting in on the tail end of this, but I think I have a little insight that some may not. 1. I am a 15yr veteran of Aiki Budo. I do not claim Aiki jujitsu, or Aikido because I study all aspects of combat from an Aiki standpoint, which is, do it the most efficient way possible. 2. I am a police officer. I train in Martial Science for survival. This includes empty hands, bladed weapons, impact weapons, and firearms. 3. I have studied with all kinds of practitioners in my off time, just to see how I stand up in "combat" not art. This includes Bujinkan. 4. I have fought for my life, on more than one occasion, due to my work. And I am happy to say that everything I have learned and experienced has been useful in this.
I want to point out that I have competed in MMA on an amature level, and found that those guys are tough as hell. But....it is not life or death combat and if I were not confined to the rules of the "game", I would have been able to overcome many attacks and holds that did me in while fighting in the ring. As a Budoka, I have taken my art to another level and introduced firearms and handcuffs into my list of tactics. I taught other officers how to use those items in an Aiki fashion. I have also noticed that what I thought I "discovered" was being taught by Dr. Hatsume way before I thought of it. BJJ, MMA, and Vale Tudo are great for someone that is fighting one on one with a guy that is your size/strength or smaller. But, in it's purest form, it has no place in real combat. But if you augment it a little, and add or change a few minor things, its great. But, then its not the same style anymore. And lets be honest. MMA is just that. Mixed. Its a collection of easy-to-learn techniques that require gross muscle movement and a LOT of conditioning and strength. Do you really think a small female will be able to subdue a 6' 5", 265lb attacker with the "ground and pound" techniques that are popular in that system. Professionals need a size and strength equalizer such as Aiki Budo or Bujinkan to be devistatingly advantageous. But most pros do not have the time or budget to put in the training needed to be proficient with those principals. I have a lot of respect for the accomplished MMA fighter. I have a ton of respect for our military. And of course my brothers in blue are at the top of my list. Would I want my loved ones to learn to defend themselves with their techniques. Not on your life. Bujinkan, or any other martial "art" is only as good as the teacher mixed with the individual talents of the student. The principals are based on human anatomy and geometry and are very useful in a combat situation. But, most people dont have the time to teach it to those who will see true combat. So where do you draw the line?
 

MMcGuirk

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Bujinkan, or any other martial "art" is only as good as the teacher mixed with the individual talents of the student. The principals are based on human anatomy and geometry and are very useful in a combat situation. But, most people dont have the time to teach it to those who will see true combat. So where do you draw the line?


It's a common problem. But I think you hit the nail on the head or at least alluded to it. It's the individuals responsibility.

How much time can we devote to training? Do we really know if we have a good teacher? Common problems shared by a lot of us. I don't even want to think about how much money I've spent over the years going to seminars and training. I could probably have paid off my student loan!

I think it comes down to honesty toward yourself and doing some hard research and even harder self evaluation on yourself. Do I really have a teacher who knows his/her stuff?

Would these principles work in a real fight?
How fast should I be progressing? Am I really pushing myself hard? For me, I ask my friends to be honest with me. What I did to you, would this really have worked against you? What if you were numbed by rage? Would you have felt these strikes? I pretty much figured out a lot of this but you get the point.

Personally I am my own worst critic. I am humbled by those who are much better than me and can point out and actually do what they are teaching in real speed.

A common point my betters do make though is this: constant consistent training will improve your skills. Going too fast before you learn the proper movements and principles will only retard your learning. People want to go full out to test themselves before they are ready. And then they go to rats""t in training or a real situation and then blame the art.

I have a few friends who have used the skills practiced in real life and they've come home safe. I've used it in a situation involving blades and have come out safely.

In the end we cannot have a perfect set standard for everyone.
Where I live, a police officer was gunned down with their own weapon. No video was ever shown of the incident but it was a situation where the officer curled up into a ball when confronted. In the same police dept. we had an officer get shot in the chest point blank with a shotgun. That officer returned fire from the ground as the suspect tried to get away and made them run into a fence. (bullet proof vest! and the would be cop killer was caught) Same police dept. same training.
 

ElfTengu

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Great post Chaos, I'm always willing to listen to anyone who has put money where their mouth is.

I don't think I have seen it summed up so succinctly without offending anyone, in fact I would have gone a little further and pointed out what is lacking in most taijutsu practitioners that will make them lose in a serious situation, although you addressed this when you said it is about the individual and the teacher.

It is sad but true however that for many people, 10+ years of training will do them about as much good as giving a gun to a mouse.

Amusingly, what is missing in most peoples' taijutsu training, i.e. the psychological factors of fear, stress and adrenaline (as well as physical fitness and conditioning) can be found very quickly by signing up for a few months of MMA and re-visiting it from time to time. Certainly preferable to risking life and limb in a police or military environment although obviously no substitute, although having said that, I doubt if anyone envies the police officer who has to arrest Chuck Lidell after one of his famous nights out, I mean, do they use a gun because he has bigger muscles than them and his profession depends upon not letting people restrain him? LOL.
 
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