bujinkan for combat ??

Hudson69

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Being a Police Officer myself I generally agree with this reply. I am a DT Instructor as well as having a background in primarily Kenpo and Budo Taijutsu and yes the skills I want my family and friends to learn are the ones that are going to keep them safe, Budo Taijutsu is not it; if it had to be an "art" school it would be either Ed Parker's Kenpo or Jeet Kune Do. I appreciate a ground fighting based martial art but I want something that can handle multiple attackers and has enough ground escapes to be useful and is direct enough to end the fight as quickly as possible. DT works best for me and has been tested by my department on a number of occaisions; . . . . . it works when it counts.
 

CHAOS

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Great post Chaos, I'm always willing to listen to anyone who has put money where their mouth is.

I don't think I have seen it summed up so succinctly without offending anyone, in fact I would have gone a little further and pointed out what is lacking in most taijutsu practitioners that will make them lose in a serious situation, although you addressed this when you said it is about the individual and the teacher.

It is sad but true however that for many people, 10+ years of training will do them about as much good as giving a gun to a mouse.

Amusingly, what is missing in most peoples' taijutsu training, i.e. the psychological factors of fear, stress and adrenaline (as well as physical fitness and conditioning) can be found very quickly by signing up for a few months of MMA and re-visiting it from time to time. Certainly preferable to risking life and limb in a police or military environment although obviously no substitute, although having said that, I doubt if anyone envies the police officer who has to arrest Chuck Lidell after one of his famous nights out, I mean, do they use a gun because he has bigger muscles than them and his profession depends upon not letting people restrain him? LOL.

The issue of arresting someone like Liddell, is that even though he is tough, fast, strong and experienced, he is really not that smart. Im not trying to offend anyone, I am only pointing out his weakness. I've watched his fights in slow motion and in great detail. He relys on the fact that he is nearly impossible to knock out. He fights sloppy, even for MMA, and get hit over and over again. We deal with guys like this every day. The thing about LE and Military, is we have no other option but to be smart about our altercations. We are trained not to take unneccessary risks. We are not attempting to gain popularity or win an event. We are doing a job. Combat is part of our profession. Liddell is trained to fight one man, in underwear, with rules and a cup. We are trained to stop the forward progression of the attack and subdue the suspect while looking for his friends. We also have weapons. Liddell has never shown up for training and his coach sprayed him in the face with OC, hit him in the tricept with a metal baton, and had three other people jump on him and drag him to the ground. And, given him the instructions that if he can fight back and initiate a deadly force attack on the combatants he will be met with multiple rounds of gunfire. This is always in the back of the mind of guy that is fighting Police. He may be drunk, or crazy, enough to convince himself that we will not escalate a fight to that level, but it is social training that will cause him to falter just a little, due to self preservation, during the altercation. It is socially acceptable for a Police officer to strike a suspect that is larger and stronger, during a legal detainment, with an impact weapon, if the officer is in harms way and losing. It would be leagally acceptable to use an elevated amount of force due to common knowledge of Liddell's abilities and conditioning. That will give the officer a "mental go-ahead" to go to the next level, where he may hesitate if it were an unknown person. As an officer you will go into the fight knowing that you may use the amount of force you deem fit, to end the forward progression of the attack.
Just look up the video of the officer fighting the boxer , on youtube. That video set a prescidence for all law enforcement officers that know their limits in combat. If you CAN'T win in a hands-on encounter, you up the anti.
As for the part about the 10+ years of experience and being inneffective... I had an former Special Forces instructor, who spent time in the jungles of Viet Nam, tell me one time. " Never underestimate anyone that has 10+ years of training in anything. A carpenter that has been swinging a hammer for 15 years will eat your lunch if he is fighting with a hammer." I will bow low to a 10 year veteran of any dicipline. I have 25 years of training in various systems and diciplines and I know what a guy can accomplish in a decade.
I also encourage my student to experince the MMA world. Yes, you can get very close to the "fight or flight" level in that type of environment. I use a few "drills" to get my guys in that "fear factor". I will turn all the lights out, turn on some death metal, turn on the strobe light and have them play a sort of "monkey in the middle". one guy has 2min. with every guy in the circle, and then change out. It is mind-numbing!
Military is a whole different game. You have rules to follow, but the main one is "kill the enemy". Makes for more options to end the fight, than what is allowed for LE. And thank you for your "kudos" on my humble oppinion on a subject that is most controversial in modern combatives.
 
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CHAOS

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Being a Police Officer myself I generally agree with this reply. I am a DT Instructor as well as having a background in primarily Kenpo and Budo Taijutsu and yes the skills I want my family and friends to learn are the ones that are going to keep them safe, Budo Taijutsu is not it; if it had to be an "art" school it would be either Ed Parker's Kenpo or Jeet Kune Do. I appreciate a ground fighting based martial art but I want something that can handle multiple attackers and has enough ground escapes to be useful and is direct enough to end the fight as quickly as possible. DT works best for me and has been tested by my department on a number of occaisions; . . . . . it works when it counts.

The thing about "Defensive Tactics" taining I like is that it is a "martial science" not a martial "art". The only qualms I have with it is that it is just as the name implies...Defensive. I know you have come to the realization that most of the encounter in our profession require us to be "Offensive", or precautionary. Nearly all the major altercations I have been involved in, as a peace officer, started with me having to "attack" someone to protect another or myself. The other thing is that they don't really teach you how to continue learning. The tactics are based on technique intead of principal. Techniques are concrete and un-evolving. Principals can be attached to any number of techniques or reactions. I also incorporate a number of "third person defenses" that you don't find in standard LE DT. If we are called on to "serve and protect" the public, without putting them in harms way, should'nt we be trained how to do that. I am GREATFUL that my instructors put a lot of emphasis on third person protection and gave me the drills and experience to apply that knowledge. I have had to dip from that bucket on several occasions, during family disturbances, when the attack was still "in progress" on my arrival.
I know that no system or art is the end all to combatives. I do, however, believe that there are a set number of principals that apply no matter what you are teaching. A human body can only move, or be moved, a certain, finite way. All systems of strategy need to incorporate prinicipals that maximize the student efficiency, and minimize the gross muscle movement needed to gain the initiative. And all systems need to recognize and understand the OODA loop.
 

ElfTengu

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The issue of arresting someone like Liddell, is that even though he is tough, fast, strong and experienced, he is really not that smart. Im not trying to offend anyone, I am only pointing out his weakness. I've watched his fights in slow motion and in great detail. He relys on the fact that he is nearly impossible to knock out. He fights sloppy, even for MMA, and get hit over and over again. We deal with guys like this every day. The thing about LE and Military, is we have no other option but to be smart about our altercations. We are trained not to take unneccessary risks. We are not attempting to gain popularity or win an event. We are doing a job. Combat is part of our profession. Liddell is trained to fight one man, in underwear, with rules and a cup. We are trained to stop the forward progression of the attack and subdue the suspect while looking for his friends. We also have weapons. Liddell has never shown up for training and his coach sprayed him in the face with OC, hit him in the tricept with a metal baton, and had three other people jump on him and drag him to the ground. And, given him the instructions that if he can fight back and initiate a deadly force attack on the combatants he will be met with multiple rounds of gunfire. This is always in the back of the mind of guy that is fighting Police. He may be drunk, or crazy, enough to convince himself that we will not escalate a fight to that level, but it is social training that will cause him to falter just a little, due to self preservation, during the altercation. It is socially acceptable for a Police officer to strike a suspect that is larger and stronger, during a legal detainment, with an impact weapon, if the officer is in harms way and losing. It would be leagally acceptable to use an elevated amount of force due to common knowledge of Liddell's abilities and conditioning. That will give the officer a "mental go-ahead" to go to the next level, where he may hesitate if it were an unknown person. As an officer you will go into the fight knowing that you may use the amount of force you deem fit, to end the forward progression of the attack.
Just look up the video of the officer fighting the boxer , on youtube. That video set a prescidence for all law enforcement officers that know their limits in combat. If you CAN'T win in a hands-on encounter, you up the anti.
As for the part about the 10+ years of experience and being inneffective... I had an former Special Forces instructor, who spent time in the jungles of Viet Nam, tell me one time. " Never underestimate anyone that has 10+ years of training in anything. A carpenter that has been swinging a hammer for 15 years will eat your lunch if he is fighting with a hammer." I will bow low to a 10 year veteran of any dicipline. I have 25 years of training in various systems and diciplines and I know what a guy can accomplish in a decade.
I also encourage my student to experince the MMA world. Yes, you can get very close to the "fight or flight" level in that type of environment. I use a few "drills" to get my guys in that "fear factor". I will turn all the lights out, turn on some death metal, turn on the strobe light and have them play a sort of "monkey in the middle". one guy has 2min. with every guy in the circle, and then change out. It is mind-numbing!
Military is a whole different game. You have rules to follow, but the main one is "kill the enemy". Makes for more options to end the fight, than what is allowed for LE. And thank you for your "kudos" on my humble oppinion on a subject that is most controversial in modern combatives.

All good stuff again, but I still say you would be better off having to arrest the archetypal 10 year Bujinkanner than Chuck Lidell. You would certainly be better off having to arrest me than him. I am not as strong, conditioned or fit, have not had a fraction of his exposure to resistant training partners, can probably not take hits as readily, have hardly ever hit another person in anger, and don't take drugs or have anger management problems. A Rhinocerous is not a particularly intelligent creature and with not much of a varied game plan, but I still wouldn't want to upset one in open ground! :D
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Anyone want to tell me what happened to my last post here?

There was a merging attempt with another site and things went poorly. The restore point was probably before your last post.
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Danbot

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I just started training Bujinkan and really like it. All the negative things people say about it were addressed as the telegraphed part is something that get ironed out later on as you PDs through the 3 levels of understanding. The first and maybe second are more laying the foundation. And they do spar! It takes a little time to work up to but not that long. Maybe the places vary but I found a little club that rents a small space in a gym. The main people have about 40 years in and are still very active. I like it. I took traditional Kung Fu (Wing Chun/Hung Gar) and took a little to build up the base but, I still use the stuff all the time. Breaking up fights at work (teaching), playing with my kids, etc. So far I feel the bad stigma are mostly misconceptions or the quality of Dojos vary maybe. But I am being critiqued, drilled, worked with, and there is a curriculum of Kata with explanation of applications. Even some insight into the future of higher levels once ready. But even working on the basics it seems like a good system for the random self defense situation of reacting and getting out. One should always diversify arts in their lifetime as well. 2.5 years of Kung Fu, a year of learning MMA from an old wrestling teammate, and now this is just another thing to understand and use. But I think the system deserves more respect than it gets.
 

dunc

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I just started training Bujinkan and really like it. All the negative things people say about it were addressed as the telegraphed part is something that get ironed out later on as you PDs through the 3 levels of understanding. The first and maybe second are more laying the foundation. And they do spar! It takes a little time to work up to but not that long. Maybe the places vary but I found a little club that rents a small space in a gym. The main people have about 40 years in and are still very active. I like it. I took traditional Kung Fu (Wing Chun/Hung Gar) and took a little to build up the base but, I still use the stuff all the time. Breaking up fights at work (teaching), playing with my kids, etc. So far I feel the bad stigma are mostly misconceptions or the quality of Dojos vary maybe. But I am being critiqued, drilled, worked with, and there is a curriculum of Kata with explanation of applications. Even some insight into the future of higher levels once ready. But even working on the basics it seems like a good system for the random self defense situation of reacting and getting out. One should always diversify arts in their lifetime as well. 2.5 years of Kung Fu, a year of learning MMA from an old wrestling teammate, and now this is just another thing to understand and use. But I think the system deserves more respect than it gets.
That's so great to hear!
The quality does vary a lot so always best to bear that in mind when you read about it online etc
Where are you training?
 

Danbot

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That's so great to hear!
The quality does vary a lot so always best to bear that in mind when you read about it online etc
Where are you training?


It is just a small space rented in a bigger facility. But no contracts and more of a private club. Super nice and a lot of teaching. Reminds me of Hung Gar a bit but different foot work. But the details are good and the instruction. They care and are knowledgeable. The first year is always building that base for traditional systems. Many just dont have the patience. I do know in fighting from Wing Chun and other Chinese arts. Honestly, it is all good. But Bujinkan is good stuff.
 

dramonis

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The size of the Bujinkan, the lack of competition, and the well-structured curriculum make it easy for a drop in training quality to occur, as there isn't a competition where the whole community can evaluate the skills of teachers and their students, creating isolated gyms where not many people know each other to comment on how poorly your group is performing the San Shin No Kata or any basic stuff.

BJJ gained popularity through marketing, with early championships in the USA being structured with rules that favored BJJ. This novelty was significant since joint locks on the ground were relatively unknown, with judo or wrestling being the closest alternatives, neither of which feature as many locks as BJJ. The lack of knowledge of the fight made BJJ win most of the fights. As BJJ gained popularity, the Gracies began to lose, but by then, the art had become somewhat popular.

Bujinkan techniques are effective, but success in a standing fight depends on your skill, strategy, and adaptation to the opponent. Ground techniques and grappling are no different from BJJ and judo. Moreover, Bujinkan training includes experience with weapons like staff, knife, and rope, which are crucial in modern times, adding value to the art.

Another point worth mentioning is that in Brazil during the 1960s, Vale tudo, the prevalent martial art, was Capoeira. Even in street confrontations, Capoeira was commonly used, especially with the use of Navalha (Straight Razor), as the weapon could be concealed in the feet or hands. It wasn't until 1980 and 1984, with Rickson Gracie's fights against Casimiro de Nascimento Martins ("Rei Zulu") and Robson Gracie's ascension to the Presidency of the Sports Superintendence of the State of Rio de Janeiro, that BJJ gained popularity in Brazil.
 

dunc

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The size of the Bujinkan, the lack of competition, and the well-structured curriculum make it easy for a drop in training quality to occur, as there isn't a competition where the whole community can evaluate the skills of teachers and their students, creating isolated gyms where not many people know each other to comment on how poorly your group is performing the San Shin No Kata or any basic stuff.

BJJ gained popularity through marketing, with early championships in the USA being structured with rules that favored BJJ. This novelty was significant since joint locks on the ground were relatively unknown, with judo or wrestling being the closest alternatives, neither of which feature as many locks as BJJ. The lack of knowledge of the fight made BJJ win most of the fights. As BJJ gained popularity, the Gracies began to lose, but by then, the art had become somewhat popular.

Bujinkan techniques are effective, but success in a standing fight depends on your skill, strategy, and adaptation to the opponent. Ground techniques and grappling are no different from BJJ and judo. Moreover, Bujinkan training includes experience with weapons like staff, knife, and rope, which are crucial in modern times, adding value to the art.

Another point worth mentioning is that in Brazil during the 1960s, Vale tudo, the prevalent martial art, was Capoeira. Even in street confrontations, Capoeira was commonly used, especially with the use of Navalha (Straight Razor), as the weapon could be concealed in the feet or hands. It wasn't until 1980 and 1984, with Rickson Gracie's fights against Casimiro de Nascimento Martins ("Rei Zulu") and Robson Gracie's ascension to the Presidency of the Sports Superintendence of the State of Rio de Janeiro, that BJJ gained popularity in Brazil.
Hi
Im not sure what your point is here?
Is it that BJJ is more popular than Bujinkan because of the Gracies marketing efforts in the 90s?
or that BJJ is only deemed effective because of the chosen ruleset?
Thanks
D
 

JowGaWolf

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saw 2008 and thought Photonguy would be hear. Carry on.
 

dramonis

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Hi
Im not sure what your point is here?
Is it that BJJ is more popular than Bujinkan because of the Gracies marketing efforts in the 90s?
or that BJJ is only deemed effective because of the chosen ruleset?
Thanks
D
Is it that BJJ is more popular than Bujinkan because of the Gracies marketing efforts in the 90s?
Yes, BJJ became well-known due to marketing efforts, and the rule sets made BJJ look invincible.
the video bellow explain better
---

Imagine if the rule set of a championship to allow only staff fights, BJJ will lose due to a lack of knowledge. Although old-school BJJ, as taught by Gracie, includes a self-defense component in the curriculum, it isn't as comprehensive as Bujinkan.
But don't get me wrong, BJJ is very important for grappling and ground fighting, and it's one of the essential martial arts on my personal list to learn. For me, Bujinkan is a complement to grappling and ground techniques, but the most significant aspect is the strategy and weapon experimentation that one gains in Bujinkan.
It's foolish to believe that there is a supreme and complete martial art, or that one martial art triumphs over another. In a fight under fair conditions, what matters is your knowledge and intelligence.
 

dunc

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Is it that BJJ is more popular than Bujinkan because of the Gracies marketing efforts in the 90s?
Yes, BJJ became well-known due to marketing efforts, and the rule sets made BJJ look invincible.
the video bellow explain better
---

Imagine if the rule set of a championship to allow only staff fights, BJJ will lose due to a lack of knowledge. Although old-school BJJ, as taught by Gracie, includes a self-defense component in the curriculum, it isn't as comprehensive as Bujinkan.
But don't get me wrong, BJJ is very important for grappling and ground fighting, and it's one of the essential martial arts on my personal list to learn. For me, Bujinkan is a complement to grappling and ground techniques, but the most significant aspect is the strategy and weapon experimentation that one gains in Bujinkan.
It's foolish to believe that there is a supreme and complete martial art, or that one martial art triumphs over another. In a fight under fair conditions, what matters is your knowledge and intelligence.
The Bujinkan is, in my view, very effective for communicating the essence of Japanese Budo. It also has a lot of techniques in its curriculum that are very good for modern self defence scenarios and a large number of techniques that could be considered as something more like historical preservation (although I think some of these can be adapted for a modern context)
I believe that people in the Bujinkan need to respect the fact that mostly they were exposed to Sokes training in his latter years and in an environment where he had a huge number of people he didnt know crammed into a small room. So now it becomes our responsibility to make sure that the Bujinkan produces people who can hold their own in the martial arts community. Its down to us to figure out how best to do this, but dancing around in response to a single static punch delivered from the rear hand 6 feet away probably isnt going to do it
Im personally very interested in the combination of Bujinkan, BJJ and MMA and feel that this could produce very rounded martial artists who can operate across the divides between Budo, self defence and Sports
 
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