Thunder Foot
Brown Belt
How so? I fail to see anything that Lee accomplished as not being a result of his personal work.
Can you give definitive examples?
Bruce Lee.. Overrated?
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Can you give definitive examples?
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Josh
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all in my profile, my friend. I don't want this to become a thread war. I didnt say Bruce Lee wasent charismatic, and I wasent implying that if he was that it was a bad thing. Don't read too deeply into my question. Was Bruce Lee over rated? Well apprently some people on this fourm think so. Who knows? Who really cares? It was just something to talk about... and thats what a forum is, a place to talk.
Josh
Agreed. We talk. We may agree, we may disagree. There's no rule stating we need to reach a consensus.
Infinite
Brown Belt
there isn't ??? well NOW you tell me ... I mean sheesh I could have been so much more dissenting.
--Infy
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Then why the heck am I trying to be a kinder gentler Xue!?!?!?!? :uhyeah:
YEAH... What he said
Thunder Foot
Brown Belt
Well now there's talking, then there's discussing hehe. I suppose this is MartialTalk however.
FROM A KENPO BLACK BELT
With all the "opinions" from those who did not know Bruce and from one who did know Bruce, I thought it would be nice to post some "quotes" from a Kenpo Black Belt that quit Kenpo for Jeet Kune Do and who did not only "know" Bruce but was Bruces student.
DW Forum - Bruce was a practical joker, were you ever the victim of such jokes or did you ever witness any of them?
Steve Golden - No. Unless you think getting hit with his one inch punch without any protection a practical joke. I saw my friend who was not expecting it go flying into a couch in a hotel lobby. The really great part of that is that I wasn't the person getting hit.
</SPAN>DW Forum - How did you first meet Bruce and what were first impressions of him?
Steve Golden - I met him at Ed Parker's school in Pasadena, California. I'm not sure what our first impression was but I know that we wouldn't let Bruce out of the school without asking him all kinds of questions. So I know that we were very impressed. Bruce and Ed Parker were very good friends. Bruce used to come in every once in a while to talk to Ed and we sure loved to see him.
DW Forum - Were you ever the victim of any of any of Bruce Lee sidekicks, if so what was it like?
Steve Golden - Ouch! Why did you remind me of that? This was in the Chinatown school. Class was over and Bruce was explaining something to some friend of his. I was the only one left in the building. He walked over and asked me to put on two chest protectors. Then he said that he was going to kick me and that I should get back as fast as I can. I remember him starting and me starting to run back. Then I remember flying through the air and hitting the cinder block wall. I thought he broke all my ribs while I was running away from his kick. Years later, Jerry Poteet told me that he was standing in the doorway and saw it happen He said that he thought Bruce had killed me. I didn't even know anyone else saw it.
</SPAN>
DW Forum - What is the best memory that you have of Bruce are there any special memories?
Steve Golden - My favorite time was when we worked out together in the bar of a closed Chinese restaurant. It's a long story but basically we were doing Chi Sao and I couldn't hit him. I told him that you can't beat a man at his own game. He looked at me and said, "That's not my game." I asked him what was. He said, "Try to stop me." We squared off as though we were going to fight. I was already a black belt in Kenpo and I lasted almost two seconds. He had both of my arms trapped against my body while I was bent over backwards on a piano and he had his fingers in my eyes. Then he looked at me, smiled and said, "That's my game." That was what convinced me that I had to learn his system.
</SPAN>
DW Forum - What was the most touching thing that Bruce ever did for you?
Steve Golden - I think it was when he told me that he liked me and the other Kenpo guys because we knew how to move and that we had open minds. I thought that was quite a compliment.
</SPAN>
DW Forum - Do you feel that Bruce was the greatest martial artist of the 20th century and also what level of martial arts skill would he have been at today?
Steve Golden - To be fair to everyone, I have not seen all the martial artists of the 20th century. It is an awfully big world. But from what I have seen, no one in these days has all the attributes that Bruce had. If they did, they would be just as visible and famous. Bruce was not only a fabulous martial artist, he was also a genius. He could not only "do it", he also understood why things worked. Can you imagine a person who can do this: Every time Bruce attacked, it was successful. I mean every time! And, every time someone else attacked, he hit them. Think about that.
As for where he would be today, no one knows. I think it's safe to assume that he would continue on the path he chose. He said that when his strength and speed diminished with age, awareness would more than make up for it.
</SPAN>
Last Fearner
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I'm not a fan of Bruce's movies. He certainly was a physical speciman with guys like Dorian Yates in awe of his physique so in that respect he wasn't overrated. I think his idea of tailoring an art to a person and taking what is useful etc was a lot different to what was being said at the time and probably opened a few peoples eyes. He could allegedly fight and had many altercations so I'm sure his ability in that area was well above average. However he was an icon as is well known worldwide as Elvis. Personally I don't particularly like either one but they both certainly left their mark on this world. Overrated, I don't know about that, as rating someone is very objective. I don't rate Bruce that highly but if a JKD practitioner does well power to them.
Cheers
Sam:asian:
Cheers
Sam:asian:
The Elemental
Yellow Belt
Yes and no, indeed many legends tend to have an unbelieveble larger than life status and Lee was no exception however Bruce Lee was revolutionary, he may not have been the first to introduce cross-training however he was the first to make the idea mainstream with his JKD system and he was the one who revived after many people had too much pride in their own styles to care about other styles.
Note: You want to talk about overrated? Chuck Norris, he's good but not to the point of making people think he was better than Bruce. Norris himself admitted that. And to me Hollywood's true internet icon would always be Mr.T cause he was the first.
Note: You want to talk about overrated? Chuck Norris, he's good but not to the point of making people think he was better than Bruce. Norris himself admitted that. And to me Hollywood's true internet icon would always be Mr.T cause he was the first.
To be honest I think the gracies revolutionized Martial arts a hell of a lot more then bruce.IMO
Bruce was mainstream everyone knew of him through films and such i think people get the impression that bruce could do everything he did in the films in real life...I think his hype far over took his abilites...especially when actually fighting was concerned.
His philosophy is what Bruce should be remembered for.
Bruce was mainstream everyone knew of him through films and such i think people get the impression that bruce could do everything he did in the films in real life...I think his hype far over took his abilites...especially when actually fighting was concerned.
His philosophy is what Bruce should be remembered for.
More from someone who "knew" him.
http://jkdus.com/user/JKD%20NEW%20CLIPS/lesson%20of%20the%20week/george%20lee%20interview.wmv
I'm not one to say something false about Bruce or anyone else but the biggest lie out there is when someones martial art abilities is being judged by their movies. Most opinions seem to be based on "edited footage", thats a mistake by all accounts. There are many who knew Bruce and also knew the other "top" martial artists of that time who seem to say differant than those sitting behind a keyboard without "firsthand" knowledge and not much more than an "opinion" based on movies.
Yes the public is uneducated and "fans" get out of hand but Bruces lineage exists and is disgraced by uneducated opinions that should be directed at the wannabe fans opinions and not Bruce and his lineage which is attacked by the opinions whether or not it is intentional.
http://jkdus.com/user/JKD%20NEW%20CLIPS/lesson%20of%20the%20week/george%20lee%20interview.wmv
I'm not one to say something false about Bruce or anyone else but the biggest lie out there is when someones martial art abilities is being judged by their movies. Most opinions seem to be based on "edited footage", thats a mistake by all accounts. There are many who knew Bruce and also knew the other "top" martial artists of that time who seem to say differant than those sitting behind a keyboard without "firsthand" knowledge and not much more than an "opinion" based on movies.
Yes the public is uneducated and "fans" get out of hand but Bruces lineage exists and is disgraced by uneducated opinions that should be directed at the wannabe fans opinions and not Bruce and his lineage which is attacked by the opinions whether or not it is intentional.
TraditionalTKD
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Was Bruce a talented physical specimen? Sure.
Is he overrated? To me he is. Everyone thinks Bruce came up with all this revolutionary philosophy on his own based on his own ideas. He did not. What he did do was collect ideas that already existed and disseminate them in a way many people could understand. You think Bruce Lee was the first person to describe the water principle? The first person to describe how to fight within different fighting ranges? He was not. He was an avid reader of various philosophies and fighting strategies, befitting his curious mind. It has been documented that many, if not most of the ideas attributed to him were, in fact, postulated by earlier authors. I suspect that due to Lee's amazing physical skils, people wanted to believe he developed the ideas of which he spoke himself. Not quite plagiarism, but I also don't think he gave enough credit to those whose ideas he spoke of and taught.
Is he overrated? To me he is. Everyone thinks Bruce came up with all this revolutionary philosophy on his own based on his own ideas. He did not. What he did do was collect ideas that already existed and disseminate them in a way many people could understand. You think Bruce Lee was the first person to describe the water principle? The first person to describe how to fight within different fighting ranges? He was not. He was an avid reader of various philosophies and fighting strategies, befitting his curious mind. It has been documented that many, if not most of the ideas attributed to him were, in fact, postulated by earlier authors. I suspect that due to Lee's amazing physical skils, people wanted to believe he developed the ideas of which he spoke himself. Not quite plagiarism, but I also don't think he gave enough credit to those whose ideas he spoke of and taught.
ALL legends are overrated. Elvis? Columbus? Alexander the Great? Julius Ceasar? Achillies? (I'll pass on religious figures )
But it's in our nature to put the great people up higher then they really where, to ignore there faults and almost deify them. People need heroes, and ones based on real people are the most believable. The whole history of martial arts is built around people doing superhuman things.
Bruce Lee is a modern hero, and there are two pieces too that. The reality of him, and the fictional character based on him that inspires people and gives them something to look up to, something to strive for.
The man was not all that some people make him out to be, but without hero's I think our society would have a major identity crisis. We need idealized goals and images to strive for, and its all the better if they where real people.
Bruce Lee did a lot, he changed martial arts. He brought the martial arts film industry into the mainstream, he re-taught everyone the benefit and importance of cross-training, and he broke the model, went his own way and succeeded. We could use more people like that, and not just in the martial arts world.
)But it's in our nature to put the great people up higher then they really where, to ignore there faults and almost deify them. People need heroes, and ones based on real people are the most believable. The whole history of martial arts is built around people doing superhuman things.
Bruce Lee is a modern hero, and there are two pieces too that. The reality of him, and the fictional character based on him that inspires people and gives them something to look up to, something to strive for.
The man was not all that some people make him out to be, but without hero's I think our society would have a major identity crisis. We need idealized goals and images to strive for, and its all the better if they where real people.
Bruce Lee did a lot, he changed martial arts. He brought the martial arts film industry into the mainstream, he re-taught everyone the benefit and importance of cross-training, and he broke the model, went his own way and succeeded. We could use more people like that, and not just in the martial arts world.
You will not find anywhere that he claimed to make up anything that he taught. His research is well known and was nat at all common with the average instructor of his time. He was a man and he natural abilities that allowed him to excel in sports.
I'll have to go on the yes / no thing here and break it down.
Here's a relavent quote:
"There were good basketball players, and then there was Michael Jordan. And there were good martial artists, and then there was Bruce Lee."
- Sifu Dan Inosanto (yesterday, and probably a few times before)
I think it's a good analogy. Was Jordan or Lee invincible and unstoppable? Of course not, but they were probably the best in their time (at least in this country).
That said, I'd also like to add a couple of other points.
Sijo Bruce Lee was definately gifted, but he also trained pretty damn hard. Sifu Dan mentioned that he would do focus glove training with him 2 hours a day. I understand he trained something like 6 hours a day. He wasn't just good out of luck, he worked at it, much harder than most.
Now breaking things down a bit. I think he was an amazing fighter, with superior speed, reflexes, strength, training and technique. I think he did an amazing job developing Jeet Kune Do (fighting structure and philosophy) - and I wouldn't call it plagarism, as he was synthesizing various ideas. That's called research, otherwise nobody would get their Ph. Ds.
Most people don't mention this, but I don't think he could have been a better teacher. What he did opened people's eyes, which was great. Unfortunately, I think as he would progress, he'd forget the importance of certain aspects of his earlier training. For example, when he threw out Chi Sao - he didn't find it important / relavent anymore, probably because he already had that sensitivity as second nature. But a begining student, especially one without any martial arts expereince before, would then have a difficult time learning trapping energy without learning that base.
I feel he got frustrated by large classes. That's probably why he closed down the Jun Fan Institute, opting for one on one instruction. That's fine if you can afford one on one classes, but I can't.
His acting, I feel was adequate for the time - I think he just charismad his way through some of those films. I don't think his directing was particularly good, at least compared to Hollywood standards - I haven't seen a lot of Hong Kong movies of the time, so I can't really compare apples to apples. The fight scenes in Return of the Dragon were great, it's just the rest of the directing could have been better.
Here's a relavent quote:
"There were good basketball players, and then there was Michael Jordan. And there were good martial artists, and then there was Bruce Lee."
- Sifu Dan Inosanto (yesterday, and probably a few times before)
I think it's a good analogy. Was Jordan or Lee invincible and unstoppable? Of course not, but they were probably the best in their time (at least in this country).
That said, I'd also like to add a couple of other points.
Sijo Bruce Lee was definately gifted, but he also trained pretty damn hard. Sifu Dan mentioned that he would do focus glove training with him 2 hours a day. I understand he trained something like 6 hours a day. He wasn't just good out of luck, he worked at it, much harder than most.
Now breaking things down a bit. I think he was an amazing fighter, with superior speed, reflexes, strength, training and technique. I think he did an amazing job developing Jeet Kune Do (fighting structure and philosophy) - and I wouldn't call it plagarism, as he was synthesizing various ideas. That's called research, otherwise nobody would get their Ph. Ds.
Most people don't mention this, but I don't think he could have been a better teacher. What he did opened people's eyes, which was great. Unfortunately, I think as he would progress, he'd forget the importance of certain aspects of his earlier training. For example, when he threw out Chi Sao - he didn't find it important / relavent anymore, probably because he already had that sensitivity as second nature. But a begining student, especially one without any martial arts expereince before, would then have a difficult time learning trapping energy without learning that base.
I feel he got frustrated by large classes. That's probably why he closed down the Jun Fan Institute, opting for one on one instruction. That's fine if you can afford one on one classes, but I can't.
His acting, I feel was adequate for the time - I think he just charismad his way through some of those films. I don't think his directing was particularly good, at least compared to Hollywood standards - I haven't seen a lot of Hong Kong movies of the time, so I can't really compare apples to apples. The fight scenes in Return of the Dragon were great, it's just the rest of the directing could have been better.
g-bells
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you are joking right?
read up on the man and find some articles with those who had trained with him to hear of how he could watch someone do a technique,then he'd do it break it down, and improve on it. gracies more than him?????/ please
The Gracies perhaps made the general public aware that grappling was necessary but the did not invent something totally new that revolutionised the arts. Also remember that the early UFC's were designed to make the Gracies look good. Put American martial artists in a competition that they are totally unfamiliar with yet similar to what the Gracies have been doing for years in Vale Tudo. They were great marketers above all else. I do think they are over rated. That is not to say they are very good grapplers but I know some Judo guys here who would be equally competent on the ground. Each to their own though.
Cheers
Sam:asian:
Cheers
Sam:asian:
Well thats nice that Bruce could do that but ermmm what exactly has that done for martial arts????
The Gracie's (along with some others ) have turned the martial arts world on its head!!!!
It has taken martial arts from being a hobby in dojo's across the world and catapulting it to the main stage, you can now watch Gracies dream on your T.V, they have started debates that have struck the entire martial arts community ( just look at this forum) how many times is MMA brought in to debates!, they have exposed weakness within arts martial arts and changed the way the modern martial artist trains.
And more importantly they have brought martial artist together to share in knowledge and techniques the modern martial artist is a lot more open minded through cross training.
..and thats off the top of my head Bruce bless him wrote some books and did a couple of films.
Bruce lee inspired a lot of people, but I dont think he changed martial arts the way Gracie has.
IMO.
