Breaking

[rickster]

Regarding the bolded part of your statement above, are you referring to 'schools abroad' that teach traditional systems? For example, a white guy in Wisconsin running a traditional karate dojo.

Ah, No.

Traditonal schools taught by anyone follow a syllabus virtually unchanged

Abroad, from my sense of the term, are those who veer off the traditional types, and introduced something (like breaking) without the real or previous concept of it

 

[rickster]

We get our boards from a local lumber yard. White pine in 1" and 2" thicknesses. I cut them at 6" wide for young children and 10 1/2 for everyone else. It is the same with pavers, we get them from a local masonry supply company. I've seen the "demo" boards that MA supply companies sell. They make a nice sound when they break, and they break REALLY easily. So for demos I think they're okay, but for true breaking practice, they fall very short IMO.

Careful selection of material and dimensions are important

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yeah. But these are not wasted each time they are struck upon.

In other words, after one strike, you dont need to go out and purchase more punching bags, focus mits or speed balls

This is one of the reasons that I said earlier that for classes, rebreakable boards are a much better option.

And no one stands around applauding from awe-struck when someone strikes punching bags, focus mits or speed balls

They do when you're Captain America and can punch it clean off its chain repeatedly.

 

[rickster]

I can't recall anyone stating that it was a 'true test of skill per fighting ability'. Nothing that you can do in a dojo is a 'true test of skill per fighting ability'. Everything that is done in a dojo is simply another training tool to attempt to instill the abilities that a particular school is espousing. The only true test of fighting ability is to have to fight for your life against someone trying to kill you. Everything else is a compromise of that situation. We train and we practice and we spar in hopes of having the ability to survive a true test of our fighting skills if it ever happens. However, the vast majority of martial artists will never be called upon to exercise the training that they've been doing in a life or death situation.

The only truly useless martial arts related activity, in my opinion, is that habit of many martial artists of denigrating other schools and other methods because they are not the same as what they are doing. You can go to any martial arts forum and find dozens of threads by experienced martial artists denigrating everything from kata to sparring to kicking to throwing. Just because a particular school does not do something does not mean that it is useless and without benefit within another schools training regimen.

Nicely worded.

That said, any school with a curriculum different than another is fine. (I still like TKD for example)

However, it is the schools who have cirriculums different that seem to project how great or more meaningful theirs are in comparison

In additon, they also give false projections to their students, making the students blindly loyal/complacent

If you are going to be a martial artist, then you should understand there are different types/varibles.

It is like owning a car.
There are different types, and only the individual should choose which fits their needs only from a personal preference, not from bashing another

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I think that for speed breaking, MA supply company boards are ideal. But speed breaking is a whole specialty all its own, where the ability to rapidly and consistently repeat a technique and to have the stamina to do so for sustained periods of time are more important than maximum power generation.

For traditional breaking, even for demos, I prefer to see actual wood, as you use, or roofing tiles and the like to pre-cut breaking boards. At my old school, when GM Kim broke a big chunk of slate at a demo, being held up by four people each of whom had people behind them keeping them in place, it was a much bigger crowd pleaser than any of the precut board breaking that the kids were doing.

Where do you get your roofing tiles?

 

[rickster]

Kata is hard for the uninformed to grasp. Kumite is interesting enough, but its fighting, and anyone can learn to fight. But everyone, and I mean everyone, can appreciate tameshiwari. Everyone knows how much their hand hurts when it hits hard objects by accident. So when they see someone transcend normal human limitations, it gets their attention. Regardless of what you or I think of breaking, that is how over 90% (my off the cuff estimate) of non-MA-ists see it.

Everyone finds the idea of transcending mortal limitations appealing. If they didn't kids wouldn't run around with red bath towels converted into capes pretending to be Superman, nobody would buy toy light sabers and pretend to be jedi, and nobody would have bought Chemtoy's Spiderman Webmaker back in the seventies (I saved up my allowance to do so).

We have an inborn desire to transcend our limitations. Tameshiwari allows us to endulge in that fantasy for a brief moment. After we understand it, we then may enjoy the reality that our limitations weren't quite as limiting as we thought they were.

Grand post.

(To reiterate, we do not really/only need Tameshiwari to do this)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Where do you get your roofing tiles?

Not sure where you get them around here, but roofing tiles are the preferred material for kyukpah in Korea; apparently they're easier to obtain than boards. GM Kim did an open house one year and he broke a bunch of them. Concrete too. Looked great!

But in the years that I have been involved in the martial arts, I have never seen a demo net new students who actually became students. I've seen people ask for info and give their personal information. Of them maybe one percent actually call the school. Fewer still actually come in to try a class. Never saw any of them go further than that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Grand post.

(To reiterate, we do not really/only need Tameshiwari to do this)

No, we don't, but as you observed earlier; tameshiwari is about awe and image and at this point, it has become a part of MA culture for good or for bad.

And having a fireplace, its a great source of kindling!

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Not sure where you get them around here, but roofing tiles are the preferred material for kyukpah in Korea; apparently they're easier to obtain than boards. GM Kim did an open house one year and he broke a bunch of them. Concrete too. Looked great!

But in the years that I have been involved in the martial arts, I have never seen a demo net new students who actually became students. I've seen people ask for info and give their personal information. Of them maybe one percent actually call the school. Fewer still actually come in to try a class. Never saw any of them go further than that.

Yeah, I know they are popular in Korea. In my experience you're right about getting new students directly from demo's. To me it's more about top of mind awareness, and for the students performing the demo.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I was discussing this with my teacher last night and he told me a funny story. They were doing a demo one time and it got to the part where the timber breaking started. Some big guy in the audience started mouthing off about how its a "parlour trick" and its easy to break a board and "boards dont hit back" etc. Anyhow after the demo he came up and continued his rant. The captain of the demo team said "well, have a go if its so easy" and set up for some timber to break. The guy tried his hardest to break the timber and couldnt do so. He walked away with a dented ego and bruised knuckles. My instructor said the best bit was that a lot of people had witnessed it, and were laughing at him and giving the guy a hard time as he wandered off sulking with his tail between his legs. I had something similar one time where a mate of mine was bagging out on timber breaking after a few too many beers. I grabbed some breaking boards from my garage and offered him a go. It was no surprise when he couldnt break the timber.

 

[rickster]

I was discussing this with my teacher last night and he told me a funny story. They were doing a demo one time and it got to the part where the timber breaking started. Some big guy in the audience started mouthing off about how its a "parlour trick" and its easy to break a board and "boards dont hit back" etc. Anyhow after the demo he came up and continued his rant. The captain of the demo team said "well, have a go if its so easy" and set up for some timber to break. The guy tried his hardest to break the timber and couldnt do so. He walked away with a dented ego and bruised knuckles. My instructor said the best bit was that a lot of people had witnessed it, and were laughing at him and giving the guy a hard time as he wandered off sulking with his tail between his legs. I had something similar one time where a mate of mine was bagging out on timber breaking after a few too many beers. I grabbed some breaking boards from my garage and offered him a go. It was no surprise when he couldnt break the timber.

I have many tales of this in the opposite.

I used to belong to a Magician's Guilde to earn money on the side as a performer

Anyway, a few members decide to check out martial art demos.

Yes, they went upon stages/in front and perform the very same feats.

On a few occasions, I had seen a member of the guilde, actually bring his wn material and challenge the breakers.

For example, if there was bat-breaking, this guy would actually go to his car and get a bat, thus ask the breaking demo team, or whoever breaking bays, to break his.

Like all other materials he had shown up with, he was declined every time.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I have many tales of this in the opposite.

I used to belong to a Magician's Guilde to earn money on the side as a performer

Anyway, a few members decide to check out martial art demos.

Yes, they went upon stages/in front and perform the very same feats.

On a few occasions, I had seen a member of the guilde, actually bring his wn material and challenge the breakers.

For example, if there was bat-breaking, this guy would actually go to his car and get a bat, thus ask the breaking demo team, or whoever breaking bays, to break his.

Like all other materials he had shown up with, he was declined every time.

It depends too, how the timber is broken. Breaking with a hook punch or breaking with a 540 kick are oviously at different ends of the scale. I have no problems seeing a demo where someone does a 540 kick and as an extra dynamic to the kick they break timber which really ads to the whole show. People smashing timber with their fists really doesnt impress me much.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think it depends also what is being broken. If regular joe can jump up and break the timber, tile, brick etc, then I really would question what is being broken. I know the thick boards we use in class are definetly not going to be broken by someone untrained. We dont do any breaking until red belt, but for fun we occasionally have a class where everyone gets a go. Very rarely, if ever, do I see the lower belts successfully break thick breaking materials with any sort of decent technique.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think it depends also what is being broken. If regular joe can jump up and break the timber, tile, brick etc, then I really would question what is being broken. I know the thick boards we use in class are definetly not going to be broken by someone untrained. We dont do any breaking until red belt, but for fun we occasionally have a class where everyone gets a go. Very rarely, if ever, do I see the lower belts successfully break thick breaking materials with any sort of decent technique.

I used to work out with a guy who had no MA training but was into swords and joined the SCA. He was about 6'1 and weighed about 350. He had a gut, but he was pretty mobile and just stupid strong. He could break any of the stuff my sabeom could up to but not including concrete. Saw him break five boards, no spacers.

One of the major issues with 'demo breaking' is that while it looks good, most schools are not doing makiwara training, so anything but the pre-selected demo stuff is out of the question.

I have many tales of this in the opposite.

I used to belong to a Magician's Guilde to earn money on the side as a performer

Anyway, a few members decide to check out martial art demos.

Yes, they went upon stages/in front and perform the very same feats.

On a few occasions, I had seen a member of the guilde, actually bring his wn material and challenge the breakers.

For example, if there was bat-breaking, this guy would actually go to his car and get a bat, thus ask the breaking demo team, or whoever breaking bays, to break his.

Like all other materials he had shown up with, he was declined every time.

Personally, even if I did do regular makiwara training, I would never take up a challenge to break something that somebody pulled from their trunk. Way too much possibility for something to go wrong or for some joker to have something that simply isn't going to break just to make you look bad, creating the potential for injury.

Someone had mentioned laminate boards earlier. If the sections are laminated end to end, it makes the board easier to break. But laminate wood used in other applications, such as furniture and shelving, is laminated across the flat plain and not end to end; usually multiple 1/8 inch sheets of wood stacked up to make a 1 inch thick board. These are much harder to break, as you're essentially breaking eight thinner boards plus six glue boards. I would not want one of those switched in without my knowing what it was, and people pulling stuff from their trunk creates that possibility.

Of course, I don't do multiple demos each year showing off my board breaking skills, nor do I do tameshigiri (test cutting); I do Taegeuk pumse, shihap gyorugi, self defense applications, kendo kata and shiai. That neatly eliminates the potential for that type of challenge.

 

[rickster]

I used to work out with a guy who had no MA training but was into swords and joined the SCA. He was about 6'1 and weighed about 350. He had a gut, but he was pretty mobile and just stupid strong. He could break any of the stuff my sabeom could up to but not including concrete. Saw him break five boards, no spacers.

One of the major issues with 'demo breaking' is that while it looks good, most schools are not doing makiwara training, so anything but the pre-selected demo stuff is out of the question.

Thats been the general concensus..."it looks good-cool:

Personally, even if I did do regular makiwara training, I would never take up a challenge to break something that somebody pulled from their trunk. Way too much possibility for something to go wrong or for some joker to have something that simply isn't going to break just to make you look bad, creating the potential for injury.

Nope. The guy had common stock. The rejection from not using it is per your portion of your post below.

Someone had mentioned laminate boards earlier. If the sections are laminated end to end, it makes the board easier to break. But laminate wood used in other applications, such as furniture and shelving, is laminated across the flat plain and not end to end; usually multiple 1/8 inch sheets of wood stacked up to make a 1 inch thick board. These are much harder to break, as you're essentially breaking eight thinner boards plus six glue boards. I would not want one of those switched in without my knowing what it was, and people pulling stuff from their trunk creates that possibility.

This is why breakers/breaking demo do not use someone elses' stock.^^^vvv

The breaker has to select (which has been mentioned) the proper stock and dimension for the break to oaccur.

It is about physics and material selection.

For example, white pine verses maple or oak


The wider the board and wider the grain...

Well, you get it

Of course, I don't do multiple demos each year showing off my board breaking skills, nor do I do tameshigiri (test cutting); I do Taegeuk pumse, shihap gyorugi, self defense applications, kendo kata and shiai. That neatly eliminates the potential for that type of challenge.

Indeed, as it had been stated, there are other methods to provide a challenge more meaningful.

Of course it may not "look as cool"

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thats been the general concensus..."it looks good-cool.....


Indeed, as it had been stated, there are other methods to provide a challenge more meaningful.

Of course it may not "look as cool"

My own bottom line on the subject is that if the art traditionally has tameshiwari, it should be taught. By 'taught,' I mean makiwara training and correct technique for breaking; students should train in it and condition the striking surfaces that are traditionally used in breaking. If breaking is a regular part of class, then also, use rebreakable boards and save a few trees.

If the art either never had it or if it isn't something that is done other than at belt testing, then honestly, it ought to be dropped from demos.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Anyone can break a board but not everyone can break a board with a jumping spinning heel kick.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Boards don't hit back, but they don't feel pain, fear, get injured or die either.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Where do you get your roofing tiles?

I don't know where he gets his but I get mine from recycle yards, the dump and people giving them away in the paper. Old tiles are best.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Here is an article I wrote on board breaking, how it works and why it is done I hope it gives people some insight on why some arts place any importance on it.

Board breaking is common in the martial arts; the most commonly used material is pine. This material is selected because it has approximately the same tensile strength as human rib bone. Bones such as the femur and the humerus are many times stronger than the rib bone however. Boards are always broken along their weakest point which is with the grain. Boards never break across the grain because in that direction they are 5 times stronger, roughly the tensile strength of concrete. Boards, like concrete, are much more resistant to compression than they are in tension which is why they always break from the back of the board. Sometimes to save money boards will be glued back together, this however does not make the board easier to break but does in fact make it harder to break. This is because boards that have been glued together properly almost never break where they are glued and thus have to break at their second weakest point.

Some martial artists dispute the need for board breaking but others realize its importance. Breaking boards serves to improve confidence, demonstrate power, speed and/or accuracy. But the primary reason to break boards is to develop technique. Being able to break one board does not necessarily mean that you can break a rib it is more like if you can’t break a board then being able to break a rib is much less likely. Often when people, particularly children, fail to break a board with a certain kick they can often break it after they have worked on their technique. Once when I was assisting another instructor there was this child who failed to break with a flying side kick after 6 or 7 attempts. I was asked to work with him one on one on his technique. After 10 minutes helping him with his kick he got to try again… and broke the board on his first attempt.

When breaking multiple boards there are 2 basic approaches in the way they are stacked; using spacers or not using spacers. When boards break tension is applied to the back side of the board until the magnitude of the tension exceeds the tensile strength of the board and a crack is formed. The crack will then propagate to either end and towards the front of the board. When the crack reaches the ends of the board and all the way to the front the board breaks. It takes twice as much energy for a crack to propagate in 2 directions than it does in 1 so when performing a knife hand strike, for example, it is better to aim over to one side so that the majority of the energy only needs to travel one way.

Using spacers
Spacers are often used when breaking multiple boards to make the break more visually impressive to potential students or so that practitioners can break a larger number of boards. When 2 or more boards have spacers between them then each board can flex freely and break individually in sequence, to do this the momentum of the strike must be maintained over a long distance, this is not the correct way to apply force with a strike for a martial art. The important physical quantity for breaking boards is Impulse (J). This is the product of force (F) times the time taken (delta t).

J = F x (delta t)

This means that for a given magnitude of impulse less force is required if it is applied for a longer period instead of a shorter one. It has been calculated, by whom I do not know, that for each spaced board that is added to the stack makes the whole stack 90% more difficult to break due to the momentum of the boards above being transferred to the board below. In other words 2 boards are require 190% of the force required to break 1 board, 3 boards require 280%. What limits the amount of boards that can be broken is the momentum that is lost after hitting each board. The amount of power required to break each additional board is additive.

Not using spacers
Breaking stacks of boards that are unspaced is considerably more difficult because the amount of power required to break each additional board increases exponentially. It is a common belief that each additional board increases the amount of power required by a factor of 10. In other words 3 boards are 10 times harder to break than 2 and 100 times harder than 1. This is because each board below supports each of the boards above. Because each board breaks at the bottom first the force must be transmitted through the entire stack before any of the boards will break. All of the boards in the stack must break in sequence from the bottom up which would be similar to breaking one board that is a thick as the entire stack, except for the wood fibers between the individual boards that aren’t connected. This happens over a smaller distance than if the boards were spaced and thus at a faster rate and if the amount of impulse was the same as in the case of the spaced boards breaking the stack would require a much greater force. The amount of power required to break each additional board is multiplicative.

Speed breaks
These are where boards are held in the fingertips or thrown in the air before breaking. This can only occur when the force is applied over the smallest amount of time and hence the term speed break. The force on the board must exceed its tensile strength before the board can overcome its own inertia. If it does not then the board will just fly off without breaking.

Hand held versus using holders
In some cases boards will be held in human hands and in others in board holders, for downward strikes towards the floor, boards are almost exclusively held with board holders. It is more difficult to break boards held by human holders than by using board holders. This is because human beings always have some natural give in them while the board holders are more rigid. This means that for board holders only a small fraction of the force is absorbed by the rigid structure allowing more force to be available to break the boards. The use of board holders is good if there are you are on your own but it is more of a challenge to break with people holding the boards. It is difficult for human holders to hold 3 boards by themselves and any technique with the power to break 3 unspaced boards puts a large amount of stress on the wrists of the holders so they must be supported by other people holding the wrists. Holding 4 or more boards is next to impossible unless the holders have giant hands.
Breaking boards is a worthwhile endeavor so long as it is used for the right reasons such as developing technique and demonstrating the art. Board breaking for its own sake is counterproductive however as it takes time away that could be better spent elsewhere.

Talk amongst yourselves.