Break down the difference between ITF and WTF TKD for me. . .

andyjeffries

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There is a picture of that formation document in the Modern History book. I want to say GM Richard Chun and GM Jack Hwang also signed on behalf of USA. I think GM Kyong Myong LEE signed on behalf of Austria and GM Daiwon Moon on behalf of Mexico.

Now I'm excited to get home and have a look in the book... I did have a flick through but it was more of a "buy it now so that later when I can speak Korean I can read it".
 

andyjeffries

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Also WTF requires Kukkiwon poom or dan certification for competitors and referees. Not so much for coaches.

Do you predict this will always (next 10-20 years) be the case?

I think the launch of the WTF Athlete License is the bell sounding on the requirement for Kukkiwon 1st Dan. I predict that in the future that the WTF will just say "as long as you have a license (which proves you know the rules and can play to them) then why would you need a qualification in non-WTF sparring competition related activities". Of course the World Poomsae Championships may change that, but I think for Kyorugi World Championships they may in the future drop Kukkiwon.

Thoughts?
 

mastercole

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Do you predict this will always (next 10-20 years) be the case?

I think the launch of the WTF Athlete License is the bell sounding on the requirement for Kukkiwon 1st Dan. I predict that in the future that the WTF will just say "as long as you have a license (which proves you know the rules and can play to them) then why would you need a qualification in non-WTF sparring competition related activities". Of course the World Poomsae Championships may change that, but I think for Kyorugi World Championships they may in the future drop Kukkiwon.

Thoughts?

I don't know for sure, but I think one must supply their Kukkiwon Dan number as part of the application requirement for WTF Athlete License. To me, that means they will lock that in and it will become enforced.

My experience as a USA Taekwondo Team official who was involved in athlete, coach, trainer, medical and official registration at events under WTF, FISU and the IOC is that the only event that truly required Kukkiwon certification was IOC controlled events, such as World Olympic Qualifiers and the Olympic Games. All other WTF events, like World Championships on down, have a place to write in the Kukkiwon Dan #, but to my knowledge have never actually denied a team member who did not have one. I think with the WTF Athlete License, that is going to change and maybe that is already in place with the World Poomsae Championships, I don't know.
 
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SPX

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I don't state that I endorse this book, but I do know that our students who train this intense make weights a part of their training. They really like this guide. http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-3rd-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0982522738

I've actually heard of that book, but never read it. Maybe I should pick it up.


They are their own social group and basically do most things together when they are not training or in school. If you can get into a group like that it will transform everything.

What about jobs to pay bills? Or other interests? Martial arts are great, but I've always believed a person should be well-rounded.
 
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SPX

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I don't know for sure, but I think one must supply their Kukkiwon Dan number as part of the application requirement for WTF Athlete License. To me, that means they will lock that in and it will become enforced.

My experience as a USA Taekwondo Team official who was involved in athlete, coach, trainer, medical and official registration at events under WTF, FISU and the IOC is that the only event that truly required Kukkiwon certification was IOC controlled events, such as World Olympic Qualifiers and the Olympic Games. All other WTF events, like World Championships on down, have a place to write in the Kukkiwon Dan #, but to my knowledge have never actually denied a team member who did not have one. I think with the WTF Athlete License, that is going to change and maybe that is already in place with the World Poomsae Championships, I don't know.

So I'm guessing that WTF TKD tournaments are not "open". . .?
 

mastercole

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What about jobs to pay bills? Or other interests? Martial arts are great, but I've always believed a person should be well-rounded.

Grants, parents/spouse and the dojang takes care of the bills. Cleveland has an extreme variety of culture, and many things to do, music, films, sports, arts, etc. I take them all out often. We also travel around, Canada, USA, Korea, etc. They are, or becoming very well rounded.
 

mastercole

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So I'm guessing that WTF TKD tournaments are not "open". . .?

Events under the WTF umbrella currently are and have always been open to all martial artist, of every style, they did not need a Kukkiwon Dan number until they reached the Olympic Team Qualifier. A number of martial artist from non-Taekwondo styles have even made it all the way to the Olympics, and placed.

One must start at the local level, attending tournaments that are organized by the local official WTF Member National Association. If one places there, then they keep moving up, to regional, National, then they must place 1st at a National Team trail. Members of National Teams them go compete with other National Teams at WTF World Championships, or WTF Pam Am, Championships. To become a member of ones National Olympic Team, they must go through a separate Team Trials process. If they place 1st, they become the official Taekwondo Olympic Team member from their nation.

If someone made it to the Olympic level, they would be issued a Kukkiwon certificate, no one was ever denied a Kukkiwon certificate at that level.

In addition, there are many WTF Open events as well, where one is not required to be a part of a national team to compete, however, they should be aware that at open events, there is a good chance they will end up fighting National and Olympic Team members from other nations.
 
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SPX

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A number of martial artist from non-Taekwondo styles have even made it all the way to the Olympics, and placed.

That's interesting. Can you name a few off the top of your head? Was it obvious when watching them that they didn't come from a TKD background?
 

puunui

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Really? If you don't see, for one example, Un Yong Kim as president of both the WTF and the Kukkiwon as overlap, then perhaps you've taken too many hook kicks to the head. ;)

Dr. Kim is no longer the president of the Kukkiwon nor the WTF.
 

puunui

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Do you predict this will always (next 10-20 years) be the case?

I think the launch of the WTF Athlete License is the bell sounding on the requirement for Kukkiwon 1st Dan. I predict that in the future that the WTF will just say "as long as you have a license (which proves you know the rules and can play to them) then why would you need a qualification in non-WTF sparring competition related activities". Of course the World Poomsae Championships may change that, but I think for Kyorugi World Championships they may in the future drop Kukkiwon.

Thoughts?

I don't think the WTF will change its Kukkiwon poom/dan requirement. That WTF Athlete license is more for convenience. With that, they can confirm your information instantly. I hear they will issue those for coaches and referees too, if they haven't done so already. It isn't a credential, it is an ID card.
 

puunui

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What about jobs to pay bills? Or other interests? Martial arts are great, but I've always believed a person should be well-rounded.


To me "well rounded" means jack of all trades. If you really want to reach the pinnacle of something, then well rounded won't get you there. Jonathan Livingston Seagull was not well rounded.
 
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SPX

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To me "well rounded" means jack of all trades. If you really want to reach the pinnacle of something, then well rounded won't get you there. Jonathan Livingston Seagull was not well rounded.

Well if we're talking about martial arts, I'd actually rather be a 7 in both striking and grappling than a 9 in one and a 2 in the other. But I wasn't really talking about martial arts. I was talking about just getting to the end of your life and looking back and realizing that you sacrificed a LOT to reach that pinnacle you speak of. When that time comes, you may or may not feel like it was all worth it in retrospect.
 

puunui

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Well if we're talking about martial arts, I'd actually rather be a 7 in both striking and grappling than a 9 in one and a 2 in the other. But I wasn't really talking about martial arts. I was talking about just getting to the end of your life and looking back and realizing that you sacrificed a LOT to reach that pinnacle you speak of. When that time comes, you may or may not feel like it was all worth it in retrospect.

Or you could regret not going for it when you had the chance. Life is a series of choices. What one person chooses, another may not. If you are happy with your choices, then that is the only thing that matters, for you.
 

mastercole

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Well if we're talking about martial arts, I'd actually rather be a 7 in both striking and grappling than a 9 in one and a 2 in the other. But I wasn't really talking about martial arts. I was talking about just getting to the end of your life and looking back and realizing that you sacrificed a LOT to reach that pinnacle you speak of. When that time comes, you may or may not feel like it was all worth it in retrospect.

I'm talking about Taekwondo. The root philosophy in Taekwondo is Zen. Zen is focused, on one thing. The students how train in this fashion ask for this, they were on fire for it, otherwise they would not be here. Well rounded in martial arts is something I have never cared about, and never will. That thinking would be a wast of time for me, personally, and for those that are training here, in this fashion.
 

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I am a ITF Tae Kwon Do practitioner, here are a couple of things I would like to get across...

1) We do semi-contact sparring in our class quite frequently, and all the time if its in preparation for a competition. Although it is "semi-contact" and control is encouraged, things can get pretty "out of control" during the fights. I just thought I would get this point across to the person who said he knew of an ITF class which doesn't spar at all.

2) A lot of the competitions we hold and I have attended are Open to any martial art.
 

Cyriacus

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I am a ITF Tae Kwon Do practitioner, here are a couple of things I would like to get across...

1) We do semi-contact sparring in our class quite frequently, and all the time if its in preparation for a competition. Although it is "semi-contact" and control is encouraged, things can get pretty "out of control" during the fights. I just thought I would get this point across to the person who said he knew of an ITF class which doesn't spar at all.

2) A lot of the competitions we hold and I have attended are Open to any martial art.
Theres just one thing (Coming from someone who used to do ITF TKD, so You know Im not jabbing at it):
Which ITF is it? Because theres more than one ITF. And then theres, how shall We say, In Independent ITFs.
Is the Headquarters Vienna? North Korea? Canada? Or somewere else?
Theres Good ITF, theres Mediocre ITF, and theres Poor ITF. Like anything else. Its partly which ITF, but mostly, its whos teaching it.
 

Earl Weiss

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Originally Posted by mastercole A number of martial artist from non-Taekwondo styles have even made it all the way to the Olympics, and placed.
That's interesting. Can you name a few off the top of your head? Was it obvious when watching them that they didn't come from a TKD background?

1988 Arlene Limas Gold Medal - Olympics. I believe she was a Kung Fu stylist. She was an open style tournament competitor and then chose to train for the Olympics.
 
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