Boxing/MMA Gym Disses Traditional Martial Arts

KageKat

White Belt
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
Hi all. Newbie here. Been on and off with martial arts for the last 3 decades, mostly with traditional martial arts. Honestly I am not sure how much I will be posting here, but I really wanted some feedback regarding a situation that occurred this week:

I recently started doing boxing at a boxing/MMA gym, and quite liked it. However, I shared a video on their chat group recently (this one more specifically:
), thinking I'd get some decent feedback. Instead I was bombarded by comments like "this is horse ****" and "thanks, that made me laugh" and "you lost me at full contact KARATE LOL". To make it worse one of the comments was from the OWNER of the gym. Now I am really not sure about continuing at this place, as I found their actions VERY disrespectful and childish. What do you think?
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,355
Reaction score
4,645
Location
England
Ok welcome to MT.

Where do you think kickboxing came from? You posted a video purporting to be 'applying kickboxing techniques to karate' but that's where the techniques came from in the first place. Kickboxing evolved from full contact karate with a touch of boxing and Muay Thai but all techniques are found in karate anyway so the video is the wrong way round.

Having said that the MMA v TMA stuff has been going on a long while, just like style v style has with everyone wanting to push their style as being better than anyone elses. What you do about it is basically up to you, whether you want to stay or not, there is going to be little you can do about their attitudes so go or stay, up to you.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
9,082
Reaction score
3,105
Location
New York
I feel like the guy in the video is flailing his arms, but its not worse than some kickboxing videos ive seen, and the drills are super similar. Like tez said, kickboxing came from karate, which means those people are showing their ignorance laughing at the concept of full contact karate.

I know personally I wouldn't stick around a gym where the owner (if hes also the head instructor and not just financial) was making those comments on a facebook page. But that's just me. Again, like tez said, nothing will change if you leave, so its a matter if you want to tolerate it/be around that culture.
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,218
Location
In the dojo
Theyve obviously never heard of Kyokushin karate, or didnt realize the kanji on the back wall says Kyokushin.

Nothing you say or do is likely to change anyones mind. If it bothers you that much, leave. IMO its like talking politics; its best to keep your opinions to yourself rather than discuss it. Everyones somehow strongly set in their ways and nothing anyone says is going to change anyones opinion. Politics arent worth losing relationships over, and neither is the traditional MA vs whatever you call it debate.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
6,568
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Southeast U.S.
Hi all. Newbie here. Been on and off with martial arts for the last 3 decades, mostly with traditional martial arts. Honestly I am not sure how much I will be posting here, but I really wanted some feedback regarding a situation that occurred this week:

I recently started doing boxing at a boxing/MMA gym, and quite liked it. However, I shared a video on their chat group recently (this one more specifically:
), thinking I'd get some decent feedback. Instead I was bombarded by comments like "this is horse ****" and "thanks, that made me laugh" and "you lost me at full contact KARATE LOL". To make it worse one of the comments was from the OWNER of the gym. Now I am really not sure about continuing at this place, as I found their actions VERY disrespectful and childish. What do you think?

Welcome to the forum @KageKat.

I fully concur with all the good advise you have been given.

There is a 'cultural' mentality in MMA which pushes the narrative that it is the Only thing that works. That is has stripped away any ineffective techniques thereby making it the only effective system. This MMA narrative completely discludes any narrative that says ALL MMA techniques originated from various TMA's. It has really stoked the MMA/TMA fire for many.
Sadly, this appears to be the predominant mentality in MMA schools/gyms. From a traditional perspective there is no Do and I suspect they would again laugh at the mention of it.

So, it comes down to what kind of workout environment you want to be in. And of course the number of class/style choices you have.
I suspect If you stay with the MMA class you will hear much of the same for a long time. And they will strongly push their narrative until you simply leave or conform to their way of thinking.
I have a lot of problem with the latter. Not of conformity itself; it is usually a good thing. When conformity is used to push an incorrect or incomplete agenda, it really goes off the rails.

Hopefully you will stay in touch and let us know how things progress.
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,355
Reaction score
4,645
Location
England
There is a 'cultural' mentality in MMA which pushes the narrative that it is the Only thing that works.


In some MMA places not all, many do appreciate TMA and look to it for new techniques. I train both TMA and MMA and have seen the disrespect from both sides, I've also seen MT practitioners slag off MMA, TKD slag off karate etc etc, it's human nature to want to be seen to be doing the 'best' style, and it's their loss if they don't see there's something to learn from all styles.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,736
Reaction score
1,395
This is the attitude of what I call "MMA Jocks" or "the MMA cult." That's not to say that all people in MMA think this way. If you are an MMA fighter and show respect to other martial arts, I don't consider you part of this group.

The fact is that MMA is the best method we have available for testing martial arts techniques and methods. Competition breeds excellence. You don't win championships by being a mediocre boxer. If you take boxing, your goal is to get good enough at punching and not being punched to win competitions. When you go to a competition, there's two possibilities - you win, or you learn. This is why the MMA Jocks have specific martial arts they credit as being worthwhile, most notably those that have a high involvement in MMA. Those arts are typically:
  • Boxing
  • Kickboxing
  • Muay Thai
  • Sambo
  • Wrestling
  • Judo
  • Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (not Japanese Jiu-Jitsu)
  • Kyokushin Karate
  • Taekwondo (but only for kicks, and only once you already have a punching and grappling art)
They either ignore, reject, or ridicule all other arts. They don't have any respect for the traditional punching style of Taekwondo or Karate. They have no respect at all for Kung Fu. They have no respect at all for self-defense systems like Systema, Krav Maga, or Hapkido. If it's not in competition, they don't respect it.

I said MMA is the best method we have available for testing arts. I stand by that and believe it. However, that doesn't mean that the other arts don't teach quality technique. If someone disrespects traditional arts, they may have useful information on what works in MMA, but I don't consider them to be a reliable source of wisdom.
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
6,075
Reaction score
4,746
Location
Lexington, KY
Speaking as someone who comes largely from a Muay Thai/BJJ/MMA background, I can say that the technique in the video is solid. It's Kyokushin karate, which is known for full-contact competition. A number of successful MMA fighters, such as Georges St Pierre, come from a Kyokushin background.

For that matter, some of the combinations and drills shown are ones I've learned from boxing coaches.

Honestly, if your MMA coach can't recognize what's being shown here then I'd be somewhat suspicious of how well he even understands MMA.
 

Headhunter

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
4,765
Reaction score
1,591
Yeah you pretty much got it....childish and disrespectful. Sadly a fair few Mma gyms have this petty mentality (not all of them before people jump down my throat but I've certainly seen a fair amount of them)

To me if you run a school and have to go out your way to put down other styles that shows me insecurity. They have to try and prove themselves and dismiss anything apart from what they do. A good coach is someone who respects everyone and everything. Yes there's a lot of bad karate/ taekwondo or whatever out there. But equally there's a lot of bad Mma out there...I've seen shows where the fighters are at about high school playground level fighting ability. Can't believe that nonsense is still going on. Especially with UFC fighters like GSP, Stephen Thompson, lyoto machida, Anthony Pettis, Raymond Daniels, Michael venom page all high level Mma fighters who have trained in traditional styles.

Again it's their own weaknesses and insecurities showing. I wouldn't waste my time with anyone like that.
 
OP
K

KageKat

White Belt
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
Thanks for the feedback and advice guys. Most of it was really useful. I'm honestly really torn between continuing going or stopping going to the gym. On the one hand I've always wanted to do boxing, mainly because it's (in my opinion) one of the best forms of exercise, plus my grandfather (rest his soul) was a provincial boxing champion in his prime and I have always been interested to try it out but have never gotten the opportunity until recently. Also I can just go, and work out on my own time, at my own pace (unlike some gyms I've gone to in the past), without feeling pressured to follow any particular set of rules/beliefs, to be "cool" and be one with the crowd.

On the other hand though I feel disappointed, as, apart from just going to exercise, I was also looking for a community of people to join, who shared a similar interest in martial arts, but to my dismay it seems like they are more into just pure fighting if I've been reading their comments to one another correctly ("looking forward to beating the crap out of someone at this weekend's fight club").

I guess I was just really happy that I thought I had found a place, as the town I live in is REALLY small and there's basically no other options regarding martial arts training here. Am really feeling bummed about this to be honest :(
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,784
Reaction score
5,663
You realise you don't have to agree with every opinion of every person you train with?

My coach is against pinaple on pizza. So while he is basically a monster. I can still learn martial arts off him.

Otherwise I know a few guys from what is basically karate that are smashing it in MMA at the moment. It is not really about labels. It is about results.

 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
6,568
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Southeast U.S.
Thanks for the feedback and advice guys. Most of it was really useful. I'm honestly really torn between continuing going or stopping going to the gym. On the one hand I've always wanted to do boxing, mainly because it's (in my opinion) one of the best forms of exercise, plus my grandfather (rest his soul) was a provincial boxing champion in his prime and I have always been interested to try it out but have never gotten the opportunity until recently. Also I can just go, and work out on my own time, at my own pace (unlike some gyms I've gone to in the past), without feeling pressured to follow any particular set of rules/beliefs, to be "cool" and be one with the crowd.

On the other hand though I feel disappointed, as, apart from just going to exercise, I was also looking for a community of people to join, who shared a similar interest in martial arts, but to my dismay it seems like they are more into just pure fighting if I've been reading their comments to one another correctly ("looking forward to beating the crap out of someone at this weekend's fight club").

I guess I was just really happy that I thought I had found a place, as the town I live in is REALLY small and there's basically no other options regarding martial arts training here. Am really feeling bummed about this to be honest :(
Do you think some of the comments are the "ignorance of youth"? Regardless, I would suggest not using social media for the same outlet and just workout with the group for a while and see if the actions match the comments (actions louder than words). Especially since you options are limited. We live in a small town so I can relate.
If they act like they are talking then yes, it sounds like you are in a bad crowd.
 
OP
K

KageKat

White Belt
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
You realise you don't have to agree with every opinion of every person you train with?

My coach is against pinaple on pizza. So while he is basically a monster. I can still learn martial arts off him.

Otherwise I know a few guys from what is basically karate that are smashing it in MMA at the moment. It is not really about labels. It is about results.


To be fair EVERYONE should be against pineapple on pizza in my personal opinion :D
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,665
Reaction score
8,266
Location
Maui
Welcome to Martial Talk, KageKat.

Maybe give the place a shot, see how it goes. Maybe youll be surprised.
 
OP
K

KageKat

White Belt
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
Welcome to Martial Talk, KageKat.

Maybe give the place a shot, see how it goes. Maybe youll be surprised.

Thanks Buka. Actually went for a month already (January). Enjoyed it. Was unable to go this month due to finances. Was planning on starting up again from March.
 

_Simon_

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 3, 2018
Messages
3,462
Reaction score
1,768
Location
Australia
G'day mate, welcome to the forum :)

Agree with alot of the responses above. I can understand your sense of conflict and feelings about this for sure... It's unfortunate that that attitude exists, but sometimes it's unavoidable. No matter where you go there'll be some narrow minded or funny beliefs, but when it comes to the training that you all get together for, sometimes that falls by the wayside, and it doesn't matter anymore.

I know our branch chief in my previous karate style really thought that most other karate styles and even TKD were "rubbish", but the group I trained with were all awesome and it didn't change how he ran the branch. It was unfortunate, but that aside it didn't affect anything else. And I'm the same, that did put me off a bit, but yeah it didn't affect who I trained with nor the training.

And there are also alot of things I don't talk about with other martial artists and other people too, as it's maybe a bit woowoo haha, so I just save it for those who I can discuss it with, rather than force it onto them and think "they should really be thinking about this stuff!!!"

I say keep training there for the moment, and only if it actually becomes a hindering factor there (AND if it reflects in their actual training attitude, disrespect etc) and unbearable you can leave. It sounds like you really enjoy training there :). Keep us posted!

And you can always chat with us guys about the other MA stuff too ;).
 
OP
K

KageKat

White Belt
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
G'day mate, welcome to the forum :)

Agree with alot of the responses above. I can understand your sense of conflict and feelings about this for sure... It's unfortunate that that attitude exists, but sometimes it's unavoidable. No matter where you go there'll be some narrow minded or funny beliefs, but when it comes to the training that you all get together for, sometimes that falls by the wayside, and it doesn't matter anymore.

I know our branch chief in my previous karate style really thought that most other karate styles and even TKD were "rubbish", but the group I trained with were all awesome and it didn't change how he ran the branch. It was unfortunate, but that aside it didn't affect anything else. And I'm the same, that did put me off a bit, but yeah it didn't affect who I trained with nor the training.

And there are also alot of things I don't talk about with other martial artists and other people too, as it's maybe a bit woowoo haha, so I just save it for those who I can discuss it with, rather than force it onto them and think "they should really be thinking about this stuff!!!"

I say keep training there for the moment, and only if it actually becomes a hindering factor there (AND if it reflects in their actual training attitude, disrespect etc) and unbearable you can leave. It sounds like you really enjoy training there :). Keep us posted!

And you can always chat with us guys about the other MA stuff too ;).
Ta mate :cool:
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,665
Reaction score
8,266
Location
Maui
Pineapple on pizza is pretty damn good. And pizza isn't technically a food anyway. It's a medicine.
 
Top