Bouncing Bouncing Bouncing ??

[RobBnTX]

How common is this in WTF style dojangs?

Not the Sine-Wave taught in ITF schools but the constant bouncing on the balls of the feet that I have seen in a couple of WTF schools. Is this something relative new or what? I have observed this even while they are doing kicking drills on heavy bags, instructors shouting out "more bounce, more bounce." So what is everyone's opinion on this, good or bad?

Just curious.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[Nomad]

Not a TKD guy, but I've seen this used by some in sparring in other arts as well. Personally, I don't like it, but from what I understand, it has advantages and disadvantages. The advantages are that you're necessarily light on your feet, and that it's easier to fake the other person out. The disadvantages are that you're not rooted, so the power of your techniques is likely lower, and it's possible for an opponent to disrupt your rhythm (most techniques can only be launched within a fraction of the "bounce" itself) with sometimes devastating results.

 

[Buka]

It has become popular in the milieu in which it is used. As for anything else - a decent fighter will get the timing of a guy's bounce in less than three seconds. Then he'll hit him at the top of the bounce.

 

[Cyriacus]

Its to make You look Unpredictable.

I have never done it and will never, ever do it. I believe its a Waste of Energy.

But its been around for over a Decade, and is very common in KKW/WTF Competition Training Dojangs, and also in a few less Non-Competition Theme Dojangs.
ITF Forms can do it as well, as well as numerous Karate Systems, a few other Martial Arts, and some Boxers do it as well.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I like it if I already have a speed advantage, which is usually. I'm small for my weight class. I even do it in Judo shiai occasionally. It's also not as easy to get the timing as people seem to think it is, try sparring a TKD competitor. It's excellent for distorting an opponent's sense of timing.

 

[Buka]

Don't get me wrong, if it works for someone in sparring or competition, then by all means do it. I would as well. But it's fairly easy to get the timing of the bounce if you have decent timing and decent speed. In old school TKD, it's almost like Christmas.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If the fighter "Bounces" he should train to randomize the rythm of the bounce to avoid have someone time the bounce and use the dead zones against them.

While being deeply rooted / kinetic linking is great for power, sparring is about scoring points and you don't need the power of a 4+ (real) board break to score or even injure someone. You can generate sufficient power to break a couple of (real) boards being poorly rooted or unrooted. In fact, I consider the rooted requirements often found in Karate to be a noted distinction when it comes to TKD of generating power even if unrooted.

 

[StudentCarl]

Don't get me wrong, if it works for someone in sparring or competition, then by all means do it. I would as well. But it's fairly easy to get the timing of the bounce if you have decent timing and decent speed. In old school TKD, it's almost like Christmas.

It's fairly easy if you have someone playing pogo stick, but motion doesn't have to be predictable and it isn't with anyone of higher skill. Reading opponents is a two way street, and motion is also used to draw an attack. Good motion is very deceptive, and when it's combined with good checks it slows the reactions of the opponent...effectively making the attacker faster. It's oversimplistic to reduce sparring to timing a bounce once you're past the rookie level.

 

[Cyriacus]

It's fairly easy if you have someone playing pogo stick, but motion doesn't have to be predictable and it isn't with anyone of higher skill. Reading opponents is a two way street, and motion is also used to draw an attack. Good motion is very deceptive, and when it's combined with good checks it slows the reactions of the opponent...effectively making the attacker faster. It's oversimplistic to reduce sparring to timing a bounce once you're past the rookie level.

I know what You mean - But You can also use Their Effort to Encourage an Attack to Encourage a Counter Attack.
For Example, say You come in with a Front Leg Front Kick. If they were to Counter with... Im going to assume a Round Kick from either side; But this would also work on a Side Kick, Back Kick, Roundhouse Kick, or Front Kick. And probably a few others; Switch Legs and Crescent Kick it out of the Air.
...Or if Youre following Tournament Rules (I just had to say the previous one. It works pretty well. Its just not a Competitive Sparring thing.), just switch backward, then throw Your Hips over into a better Round/Roundhouse Kick.

This is only an Example, not a Suggestion. But Im mainly saying that it could also be turned against them due to their intent itself. It can be used to force an Uncontrolled Exchange, with Your Initiative.

 

[dancingalone]

Many karate tournaments allow sweeps and takedowns as do MMA matches. You generally see a lot less bouncing in those settings for obvious reasons.

 

[Tez3]

We have MMA fighters who will 'bounce', they are usually from a boxing background. It's only the lighter weights that do it, over a certain weight and it becomes too tiring and draining. In karate as well it's only the skinny fast ones who can switch from left to right stance and back quickly that can get away with it.

 

[Manny]

For my the bouncing-bouncing is a waste of time, bu tread please "for me", there are alot of guys who do competition that uses the bouncing-bouncing with sucess. I am a power guy, so my techs are pretty straight using all my weight and mass so as you mentioned I need to be conected to the ground, the thing I do is to move backwards, sideway,etc, but bouncing for me is a waste of energy.

When I did kenpo one pont fighting I got desapointed caus the kenpo guys did a lot of bouncing (not like the one TKDoings do I must say) and their techs were fast yes but lack of power and a simply slap to the ribbs with a side kick was a point, in the other hand my kicks and punches were not so fast but with considerable power.
Manny

 

[RobBnTX]

Yeah but I am not just talking about sparring but I have seen instructors who have students bouncing while doing kicking drills and even heavy bag work. I guess the idea is to get the student use to bouncing so they do it while sparring but whew, seems like a lot of cardio work to me, but I wonder how it wears on joints, especially older joints (like mine!). So if they do this in WTF schools these days, why do they even bother to teach stances anymore? I am not trying to be too judgemental and in fact wanting to be open minded about it, but just trying to wrap my brain around why TKD is being taught this way.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yeah but I am not just talking about sparring but I have seen instructors who have students bouncing while doing kicking drills and even heavy bag work.

*nods*

I guess the idea is to get the student use to bouncing so they do it while sparring

Correct!

but whew, seems like a lot of cardio work to me,

Not a lot, but an Unnecessary amount. Of course, if You freely choose to do it, all the best to ye

but I wonder how it wears on joints,

It doesnt. It wears on the Muscles.

especially older joints (like mine!).

PAIN IS WEAKNESS LEAVING THE BODY! ...Or Possibly Your Poor Joints

So if they do this in WTF schools these days, why do they even bother to teach stances anymore?

Nonononono... KKW Schools that Teach for the WTF side of it only are guilty of that. KKW Schools that just Participate offhand in WTF Bouts still have the MA side.

I am not trying to be too judgemental and in fact wanting to be open minded about it, but just trying to wrap my brain around why TKD is being taught this way.

Its mostly for the Sport Side. And in *that* Context, it Works.

There We Go.

 

[dancingalone]

So if they do this in WTF schools these days, why do they even bother to teach stances anymore?

Traditional stances don't seem to be too applicable to the bulk of what I think of as sport TKD practice as the delivery systems and platforms are different. It is another beast altogether from old school TKD which is fine.

[yt]9ZUBQt-PRjo[/yt]

 

[dancingalone]

"It doesnt. It wears on the Muscles."

No, it's definitely wearing on your knees and back at the very least. Lots of little shocks, jolts, and compressions going on. It might not bother younger, fitter people, but it is surely impactful to others.

 

[Tez3]

Traditional stances don't seem to be too applicable to the bulk of what I think of as sport TKD practice as the delivery systems and platforms are different. It is another beast altogether from old school TKD which is fine.

[yt]9ZUBQt-PRjo[/yt]

Nice video! Fast, sharp, powerful kicks are one reason TKD does well in MMA, over here at any rate!

 

[igillman]

I think that bouncing is one of those techniques that does not work well for everybody. It seems to work better for the younger/smaller crowd while it seems to be less applicable to us older/heavier people.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Don't get me wrong, if it works for someone in sparring or competition, then by all means do it. I would as well. But it's fairly easy to get the timing of the bounce if you have decent timing and decent speed. In old school TKD, it's almost like Christmas.

Like I said earlier, everyone thinks the timing is so easy to catch and it's really not. It's never even gotten me caught in Judo competition

 

[ATC]

Bouncing is not predictable. Those that say it is are not sparring against anyone that knows what they are doing with the motion or movement. Also you don't kick at the top of your bounce either that would be jumping into you kick. So there is just as much power in the kick as someone that does not bounce. It take years of practice to understand how to use the bounce when sparring, this is why so many don't know how to do it correctly. The bounce is not rhythmic but un-rhythmic, those that just bounce in a rhythmic fashion don't understand what they are doing or why it is being done, they are just bouncing because they were told to.

Trying to explain it in a forum with typed words just can't be done. It takes a ton of training someone face to face and talking to them over and over for them to get it, so there is no way anyone can type out anything that would get you to understand. But I can tell you that it works and once you get it you understand why it works.