Bock Lesner vs. Frank Mir?

[Andrew Green]

Brock Lesnar: $250,000
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira: $200,000
Tim Sylvia: $100,000
Frank Mir: $80,000

This, right here, is why we don't get to see Randy Couture fight anymore. Two former UFC Heavyweight Champions, and each of the guys that is new to the UFC is getting paid more then them combined.

Lesnar takes the largest cheque of the night, and it's his second MMA fight ever, and he got beat in a minute and a half.

My opinion of the fight, he needs refinement. He came out blazing, but even after 90 seconds he looked like he was slowing down. During the post fights Mir looked a lot fresher then Lesnar who looked pretty spent, I don't think he could have kept a pace anywhere near what he tried to set for 3 rounds. He hit mirror a lot, but not many of them where really damaging, just short quick shots. Mir fought the fight well, he weathered the storm, and finished fairly quickly, with what was a rather loose knee bar, I think most MMA vets would have been able to get out of that.

Lesnar might be able to become a top tier fighter, but he needs some experience first, and he needs to round off his skills a little more. He's not there yet.

And when a guy comes in for his first UFC fight, with a 1-0 record, and gets paid more for losing in 90 seconds then the 2 former champions get combined, it's really not any wonder that some of the guys that have been in the UFC for a while are getting annoyed. Nog won the belt, is a former Pride champion and still got less then Lesnar. I think any one of those 3 should be a little annoyed with the way contracts where done up.

Randy Couture, a hall of famer, and probably the most decorated fighter the UFC has had, with a huge following was only getting 250,000 for winning the HW belt, and then defending it. After seeing things like this, where a guy walks in with no real MMA record, and gets paid as much for losing in under 2 minutes as he does, hard to say he was wrong for walking away. Might not have been about the money, but that's pretty insulting to him IMO.

 

[MattJ]

I have to admit, I thought Frank would get wasted by Brock, and was very happy to see otherwise. Frank is still a world-class BJJ guy.

I bet Frank and Tim are waiting outside Dana's office with baseball bats! LOL.

 

[thetruth]

I'd be pissed if I was Nog. I guess it's business though. You pay those who draw the crowds, not the best fighters. Having said that, I don't think those pay days will last if he keeps losing. It was a tough bout for him and I think with some training he will be tough. Mir even said he went for a leg lock because Brock's arms and neck are so huge. That gives him a huge advantage if guys of Mir's quality are hesitant to mess with his arms and neck. His arms and neck are of the same diameter as my thigh.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

This, right here, is why we don't get to see Randy Couture fight anymore. Two former UFC Heavyweight Champions, and each of the guys that is new to the UFC is getting paid more then them combined.

Lesnar takes the largest cheque of the night, and it's his second MMA fight ever, and he got beat in a minute and a half.

My opinion of the fight, he needs refinement. He came out blazing, but even after 90 seconds he looked like he was slowing down. During the post fights Mir looked a lot fresher then Lesnar who looked pretty spent, I don't think he could have kept a pace anywhere near what he tried to set for 3 rounds. He hit mirror a lot, but not many of them where really damaging, just short quick shots. Mir fought the fight well, he weathered the storm, and finished fairly quickly, with what was a rather loose knee bar, I think most MMA vets would have been able to get out of that.

Lesnar might be able to become a top tier fighter, but he needs some experience first, and he needs to round off his skills a little more. He's not there yet.

And when a guy comes in for his first UFC fight, with a 1-0 record, and gets paid more for losing in 90 seconds then the 2 former champions get combined, it's really not any wonder that some of the guys that have been in the UFC for a while are getting annoyed. Nog won the belt, is a former Pride champion and still got less then Lesnar. I think any one of those 3 should be a little annoyed with the way contracts where done up.

Randy Couture, a hall of famer, and probably the most decorated fighter the UFC has had, with a huge following was only getting 250,000 for winning the HW belt, and then defending it. After seeing things like this, where a guy walks in with no real MMA record, and gets paid as much for losing in under 2 minutes as he does, hard to say he was wrong for walking away. Might not have been about the money, but that's pretty insulting to him IMO.

Right on Andrew. Right on!

 

[funnytiger]

Interview with Steve Mazzagatti and his reffing for the fight.

http://mmajunkie.com/2008/02/05/ref...s-lesnar-mir-fight-an-mmajunkiecom-interview/

 

[Andrew Green]

Interview with Steve Mazzagatti and his reffing for the fight.

http://mmajunkie.com/2008/02/05/ref...s-lesnar-mir-fight-an-mmajunkiecom-interview/

While the warning can't be heard, watching the fight again it is pretty much how Mazzagatti describes it.

Mir is tucked in, Lesnar lands a few blows to the back of the head, I assume this is where the warning was, forcing Mir to give up that position, some legal shots go in, he tucks back in, then same thing. Some shots to the back of the head, Mir comes out and Mazzagatti steps in.

Good call.

These also weren't close hits where he was getting warned to be careful and watch the back of the head, these where direct strikes to the back of the head which where effecting the fight.
[dmv]http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x49fuc[/dmv]

 

[funnytiger]

I'm sorry Andrew. I watched it again and I just don't see it. I do see the 1 shot that actually landed on the back of his head, but there were not "a few" shots that landed on the back of Mir's head that I can be seen in the video you posted.

I just don't think it was a good call on Mazzagatti's part.

Based on the comments from the MMAJunkies article I posted it seems there is a 50/50 split with people who thought it was a good call and those who didn't.

Wasn't the first and certainly won't be the last, right? lol

 

[Andrew Green]

Right around 4:08 there are 3 shots, then again at 4:11, he opens up, then he tucks back in and lands there again around 4:11, which is the one that Mazagatti broke them apart on. The slow motion doesn't show the first 3.

 

[funnytiger]

Right around 4:08 there are 3 shots, then again at 4:11, he opens up, then he tucks back in and lands there again around 4:11, which is the one that Mazagatti broke them apart on. The slow motion doesn't show the first 3.

I see the 3 quick strikes, but I only see 1 of them landing on the back of the head. I do see the one at 4:11 though. I still think Mazzagatti was over enthusiastic with his call and again I have NEVER seen a ref 1) call a foul that fast without a few warnings first (not just 1 "supposed" warning) and 2) stand them up and make such a grand stand about it.

*shrug* But like I said earlier, its not like we can do anything about it now. lol

 

[Andrew Green]

I see the 3 quick strikes, but I only see 1 of them landing on the back of the head. I do see the one at 4:11 though. I still think Mazzagatti was over enthusiastic with his call and again I have NEVER seen a ref 1) call a foul that fast without a few warnings first (not just 1 "supposed" warning) and 2) stand them up and make such a grand stand about it.

*shrug* But like I said earlier, its not like we can do anything about it now. lol

Fighters know the rules going in, and the ref has to make split second decisions, I think he made the right call.

The other thing to remember is that the ref should be looking at the effect of the foul as well. Another common example is fence grabbing. If someone is grabbing the fence, they get warned and told to let go. If they grab the fence and prevent a takedown by doing so that is different then doing so in a way that doesn't effect the fight and they should be penalized for it.

In this case the strikes to the back of the head forced Mir to give up his position, which effected the fight.

Mazagatti also makes the point that the illegal target is fairly specific, but fighters will get cautioned when they start getting near it, or it looks like they could hit it by what they are doing unintentionally. This is different then a official warning, but is probably the most common thing said by the ref around that rule.

 

[funnytiger]

Fighters know the rules going in, and the ref has to make split second decisions, I think he made the right call.

The other thing to remember is that the ref should be looking at the effect of the foul as well. Another common example is fence grabbing. If someone is grabbing the fence, they get warned and told to let go. If they grab the fence and prevent a takedown by doing so that is different then doing so in a way that doesn't effect the fight and they should be penalized for it.

In this case the strikes to the back of the head forced Mir to give up his position, which effected the fight.

Mazagatti also makes the point that the illegal target is fairly specific, but fighters will get cautioned when they start getting near it, or it looks like they could hit it by what they are doing unintentionally. This is different then a official warning, but is probably the most common thing said by the ref around that rule.

I respect your position on the fight Andrew. I just don't agree with it. I still think Mazzagatti's call was wrong, but what are we going to do? Argue about it until we're blue in the face? lol Nah. Just agree to disagree. Like I said, looking at message boards on other sites as well, it seems a pretty even 50/50 split with fans.

I get the impression from your posts Andrew that you aren't a fan of Lesnar joining the UFC so I think it does play a "small" role in our viewpoints. I was ecstatic when I heard Lesnar was going to do MMA and I almost pissed myself when I found out he was coming to the UFC. I always thought he was too good for the WWE and I'm glad he made the move.

Just from reading the many many posts on various websites about this fight, it seems like those who liked Lesnar thought the call was bad, those who didn't (or don't) think otherwise.

- ft

 

[Andrew Green]

I think he's a good fighter, and has the potential to be a great one. I'm glad he made the jump. I'm not as impressed that he is making more per fight with next to no MMA experience then guys that have been fighting in the UFC and hold championship belts.

Lesnar is a amazing athlete and wrestler, but he is not yet a top tier MMA fighter, and he shouldn't be getting paid more to fight then the top tier fighters, it's unfair to them to have had to work their way up, then have another guy jump in at the top with a better contract only to loose less then 2 minutes into the first round.

 

[funnytiger]

I think he's a good fighter, and has the potential to be a great one. I'm glad he made the jump. I'm not as impressed that he is making more per fight with next to no MMA experience then guys that have been fighting in the UFC and hold championship belts.

Lesnar is a amazing athlete and wrestler, but he is not yet a top tier MMA fighter, and he shouldn't be getting paid more to fight then the top tier fighters, it's unfair to them to have had to work their way up, then have another guy jump in at the top with a better contract only to loose less then 2 minutes into the first round.

I thought we were talking about the fight? Hm...

Seems to me you have a problem with the money the UFC is giving him, which is not a blame that should be placed solely on him. The UFC signed the checks.

- ft

EDIT: I agree with you, btw. He should not be making ANYWHERE near the same amount of money as veteran fighters like Mir. Let him work his way up like everyone else.

 

[Andrew Green]

I thought we were talking about the fight? Hm...

Seems to me you have a problem with the money the UFC is giving him, which is not a blame that should be placed solely on him. The UFC signed the checks.

- ft

I assumed when you said you had the impression I wasn't a fan of his being in the UFC you where referring to my little rant about his being paid as much as Randy Couture was making per fight, Couture the most decorated fighter they had and with a long history with the UFC, Lesnar a brand new fighter that got paid as much for losing his first fight as Couture got for winning the HW belt.

As for the point deduction, in the end it's a really a non-issue, after the stand up they ended up right back down and the fight didn't go to a decision anyways.

 

[funnytiger]

I assumed when you said you had the impression I wasn't a fan of his being in the UFC you where referring to my little rant about his being paid as much as Randy Couture was making per fight, Couture the most decorated fighter they had and with a long history with the UFC, Lesnar a brand new fighter that got paid as much for losing his first fight as Couture got for winning the HW belt.

No, I was just speaking in general. But I agree with you.

As for the point deduction, in the end it's a really a non-issue, after the stand up they ended up right back down and the fight didn't go to a decision anyways.

This is where I have problem with the whole thing. Its not about the point deduction and never was. It is about the stand up. If anyone thinks that did not benefit Mir than their crazy. It gave Mir time to breathe, and gather his wits. If the onslaught had continued without the break and stand up it would have ended in a GnP. My opinion. Maybe Mir would have managed some other kind of submission, although he admitted that trying to put an armbar on him was too difficult because of his bulk so... hmm...

But its a non-issue at this point because the fights over.

- ft

 

[MJS]

I actually just saw the fight today. Now, I didn't count the hits to the back of the head, but it is a violation, so I can understand the stoppage. I give Brock credit. He came in strong and was having some luck with the G&P. However, he reminded me of all of the other wrestlers when they first entered. Good takedowns, good G&P, but zero submissions. With some work, he'll be a greater force.

I do agree with Andrew though. First off, the guy only has 1 MMA fight under his belt. Anyone know who it was against, when and where it was? Personally, I can't justify paying him more and putting him with a more well known fighter, seeing that he is so new to the game.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'm not as much against putting him against Frank Mir. He is an accomplished fighter, if not a accomplished MMA fighter. Mir was not a bad choice, Mir can handle himself under pressure, and wasn't going to beat him to a bloody mess if things got ugly, it would be a submission win. Both guys are amazing grapplers, so it's not a terrible match up.

However, this:

Brock Lesnar: $250,000 for losing
Frank Mir: $80,000 for winning

Is something I do object too, those numbers should be flipped.

Lesnar's first fight was in K-1 against this guy: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=12561

WHo he beat quickly by submission from strikes.

 

[MJS]

I'm not as much against putting him against Frank Mir. He is an accomplished fighter, if not a accomplished MMA fighter. Mir was not a bad choice, Mir can handle himself under pressure, and wasn't going to beat him to a bloody mess if things got ugly, it would be a submission win. Both guys are amazing grapplers, so it's not a terrible match up.

However, this:

Brock Lesnar: $250,000 for losing
Frank Mir: $80,000 for winning

Is something I do object too, those numbers should be flipped.

Lesnar's first fight was in K-1 against this guy: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=12561

WHo he beat quickly by submission from strikes.

Well, like I said, the striking can certainly be effective. As for the cash...I still stand by my post. 1 fight IMO, should'nt give you a shot at a) that kind of money and b) a shot at someone who's been fighting alot longer and has made a big name for himself. Thats like someone getting a title shot against Randy right off the bat. I'm sorry, but you need to climb the ladder and fight the lesser known guys first, building your way up.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Might be a matter of use his name while he sticks around. Lesnar has a rep for bailing when he runs into trouble. Of course he should have worked his way up like most of the guys, not gotten the celeb push.

Me, I'm still laughing at his tat of the penis-sword. :rofl:

 

[The Elemental]

Brock has potential, all he needs to do is achieve it.