My objection to MMA

Freestyler777

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In general, I enjoy watching MMA, and I am going to watch the new UFC tonight.

However, I have one gripe with MMA. That is the kickboxing aspect of it. All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.

It is my opinion that karate and submission grappling is self defense. I like the submission aspect of MMA, but I don't like the Muay thai aspect of it. There are rarely one punch or one kick knockouts, and all the shifting emphasis on standup does is create more cuts and blood, and more brutality for the image of the sport.

In the old days, people would clinch and go to the ground almost immediately. Nowadays, people willfully stay standing just to entertain the audience or to win a judge's decision.

Karate, and all it's variants, is the most underrated martial art out there. And Muay thai is the most hyped up.

Submission grappling, Sombo, and BJJ is not overhyped. That is because in grappling/Jujitsu there is no division between sport and self defense. If you don't tap out from a choke, you go unconcious. If you dont tap out from an arm or leglock, the limb breaks. It's happened, even in practice.

So I must conclude this tirade with a bold declarative statement: karate and submission grappling is self defense. You don't have to be a professional athlete on steroids to know SD. I think Muay Thai and MMA is a little bit out there.

Anyway, Enjoy the UFC tonight!
 

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In general, I enjoy watching MMA, and I am going to watch the new UFC tonight.

However, I have one gripe with MMA. That is the kickboxing aspect of it. All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.

It is my opinion that karate and submission grappling is self defense. I like the submission aspect of MMA, but I don't like the Muay thai aspect of it. There are rarely one punch or one kick knockouts, and all the shifting emphasis on standup does is create more cuts and blood, and more brutality for the image of the sport.

In the old days, people would clinch and go to the ground almost immediately. Nowadays, people willfully stay standing just to entertain the audience or to win a judge's decision.

Karate, and all it's variants, is the most underrated martial art out there. And Muay thai is the most hyped up.

Submission grappling, Sombo, and BJJ is not overhyped. That is because in grappling/Jujitsu there is no division between sport and self defense. If you don't tap out from a choke, you go unconcious. If you dont tap out from an arm or leglock, the limb breaks. It's happened, even in practice.

So I must conclude this tirade with a bold declarative statement: karate and submission grappling is self defense. You don't have to be a professional athlete on steroids to know SD. I think Muay Thai and MMA is a little bit out there.

You don't have to be a professional athelete on steroids to do Muay Thai. And you do understand that the clinch range is a huge part of the Muay Thai repertoire right? There is certainly a division between sport and self-defense in submission wrestling, would you do a flying triangle in a self-defense situation?

If you don't like stand up striking, why do you watch the UFC, why don't you just stick with sombo, judo, bjj, or other submission wrestling events? You have a history of bold declarative statements that have always struck me as odd, remember this one from a couple of months ago?

Wrestling, Judo, Muay Thai, and Sport Jiu-jitsu are not realistic self-defense and generally do not merit discussion.

Lamont
 
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Freestyler777

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I appreciate the reply. But dont hold me to what i wrote all that time ago. I am trying to think things out and come to conclusions based on logic and observation. Sometimes i have bad days, indeed.

however, it is my belief that unless you knock someone out with one punch or kick, the clinch and ground is almost inevitable. If that is so, than endurance fighting is not as useful as quick-kill fighting for SD. Boxing and Muay Thai are VERY DIFFICULT sports to practice, but dont involve the ground, and dont deal with the essence of self-defense- to stop the attacker in as little time as possible.

Karate is designed, ideally, to disable or kill the opponent with one blow.

What I should say is, there is no sport karate! Karate is not a sport! Non lethal striking is boxing/kickboxing. In submission grappling, there is no distinction between lethal/nonlethal. All the holds are potentially crippling and painful. Submission grappling can be practiced as a sport, with competitions and sparring, without fatality and injury.

Take away the gloves and the time limits and referee intervention and MMA will become more submission oriented. I prefer judo/sombo as a spectator, but I enjoyed tonight's UFC. Nogiuera is a great man.

Anyway, what i am trying to say is kickboxing is endurance-based and non-lethal, and is not as natural as grappling. And people have overlooked karate for a long time now.

I hope i have clarified my point.
 

Tez3

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I appreciate the reply. But dont hold me to what i wrote all that time ago. I am trying to think things out and come to conclusions based on logic and observation. Sometimes i have bad days, indeed.

however, it is my belief that unless you knock someone out with one punch or kick, the clinch and ground is almost inevitable. If that is so, than endurance fighting is not as useful as quick-kill fighting for SD. Boxing and Muay Thai are VERY DIFFICULT sports to practice, but dont involve the ground, and dont deal with the essence of self-defense- to stop the attacker in as little time as possible.

Karate is designed, ideally, to disable or kill the opponent with one blow.

What I should say is, there is no sport karate! Karate is not a sport! Non lethal striking is boxing/kickboxing. In submission grappling, there is no distinction between lethal/nonlethal. All the holds are potentially crippling and painful. Submission grappling can be practiced as a sport, with competitions and sparring, without fatality and injury.

Take away the gloves and the time limits and referee intervention and MMA will become more submission oriented. I prefer judo/sombo as a spectator, but I enjoyed tonight's UFC. Nogiuera is a great man.

Anyway, what i am trying to say is kickboxing is endurance-based and non-lethal, and is not as natural as grappling. And people have overlooked karate for a long time now.

I hope i have clarified my point.

Er, no!
 
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Freestyler777

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does all this matter anyway? Just watch what you enjoy and dont do real violence unless you have to.

I enjoy judo and sombo as a spectator, so I am biased.
 

Tez3

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does all this matter anyway? Just watch what you enjoy and dont do real violence unless you have to.

I enjoy judo and sombo as a spectator, so I am biased.


LOL! then why post "my objection to MMA" ? :rolleyes:
 

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i think that anyone who is a good fighter is more capable of defending themselves effectively. simple but true.
style doesnt matter all that much i think. the biggest differences are the obvious ones like grappling vs striking and the different strategic applications in situations.
however, as far as stigmatization of karate or kickboxing, it is superfluous to training and reality. it will depend on the individual and what they manage to get out of their art. as well as those skills that they may have had even before first encountering their art.

to me, kickboxing and karate are not lightyears apart. ofcourse the form of karate is fairly different than most forms of kickboxing or muay thai. but i have seen many kickboxers that were very confident in fighting/sd situations. i have also seen karate practitioners that were completely incapable of even coming close to landing one of their strikes.
not saying that karate is worse or kickboxing is better, but i really do think it depends on what the person makes of their art.

i think that there are not many straightup lethal strikes. not only does it depend on all kinds of conditions, it requires a high level of skill to realize such striking ability. someone who is truly capable of lethal striking will also be able to control his force to a minimum with great precision.

all arts have good things in their teachings that we can learn from.

j
 
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Freestyler777

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that was a well written response.

i know this is sophistry, but if you examine hockey fights, most of what they do is gripping and punching, and occasionally throws. And if it does go to the ground (or ice) the guy on top has the advantage.

See, hockey isn't just mindless entertainment, it's more educational than MMA!

So I must reneg on my condemnation of boxing and kickboxing. In fact, striking with the hands is the most important tool. I just believe quick-kill is better than endurance fighting. In theory, karate is quick kill and boxing/kickboxing is endurance fighting. But maybe I am biased because i am a jacket wrestling (judo/sombo) fan.

Where is this all going?:yoda:
 

terryl965

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that was a well written response.

i know this is sophistry, but if you examine hockey fights, most of what they do is gripping and punching, and occasionally throws. And if it does go to the ground (or ice) the guy on top has the advantage.

See, hockey isn't just mindless entertainment, it's more educational than MMA!

So I must reneg on my condemnation of boxing and kickboxing. In fact, striking with the hands is the most important tool. I just believe quick-kill is better than endurance fighting. In theory, karate is quick kill and boxing/kickboxing is endurance fighting. But maybe I am biased because i am a jacket wrestling (judo/sombo) fan.

Where is this all going?:yoda:

Karate is a quick kill, when is the last time you trained in Karate and saw someone do a kill? I would venture to say Never. Please have you ever really had any formal training? I/m sure so many Karate people going around looking for the quick kill these days? I know when I'm out and about I'm always looking for a quick kill!

Look I understand the concept I believe to what you are trying to say but it is the way ypou say it.
 
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Freestyler777

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I really never studied karate in a significant way, so I am just spouting sophistry. I like that you agree with the concepts i am speaking of though.

I used to train judo (3 years), now I do sombo at a school that also teaches kempo. Maybe, just maybe, I will add a night of kempo per week and see for myself! I think kempo and sombo goes well together. I am really fortunate to be at the dojo that I am at. It's the only sombo school on long island.
 

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Freestyle777 the problem people sometimes have is that you make declarative statments and then turn right around later on down the road and go the other way with a new declarative statement. Instead of making a declarative statment just make a statement but understand that there simply are no absolutes in life. So anytime anyone makes a statement believe me someone can find an exception to it or plenty of exceptions.
icon6.gif
 

exile

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All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.

I'm a little confused by this comment, Freestyler. Am I missing something here? Bill Wallace, so far as I know, the 'dean' of American kickboxing, trained primarily in Okinawan karate; and it's certainly the case that a lot of the great 'sport karateka' of the 1960s were trained either in karate (Joe Lewis) or taekwondo (e.g., Skipper Mullins, Roy Kurban)&#8212;and I'd love to bet high that none of these guys had studied Muay Thai at the time they began their competitive careers. Jean-Claude van Damme studied Muay Thai, but his primary training was in Shotokan karate, and he also trained seriously in Taekwondo. I just don't see how the actual history of kickboxing and sport karate&#8212;even if you restrict your coverage to the American angle on these sports&#8212;fits with your statement that Muay Thai is the sole root of 'all' kickboxing and sport karate...
 

kaizasosei

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Originally Posted by Freestyler777
All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.

ok, now im lost.
 

jks9199

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that was a well written response.

i know this is sophistry, but if you examine hockey fights, most of what they do is gripping and punching, and occasionally throws. And if it does go to the ground (or ice) the guy on top has the advantage.

See, hockey isn't just mindless entertainment, it's more educational than MMA!

Hockey players are wearing lots of padding, and ice skates, and brawling on a unique surface. I don't think much of what they do is particularly applicable to a street fight...
So I must reneg on my condemnation of boxing and kickboxing. In fact, striking with the hands is the most important tool. I just believe quick-kill is better than endurance fighting. In theory, karate is quick kill and boxing/kickboxing is endurance fighting. But maybe I am biased because i am a jacket wrestling (judo/sombo) fan.

Where is this all going?:yoda:

Y'know... I end up with the same question after I read one of your pronouncements...

I'm a little confused by this comment, Freestyler. Am I missing something here? Bill Wallace, so far as I know, the 'dean' of American kickboxing, trained primarily in Okinawan karate; and it's certainly the case that a lot of the great 'sport karateka' of the 1960s were trained either in karate (Joe Lewis) or taekwondo (e.g., Skipper Mullins, Roy Kurban)—and I'd love to bet high that none of these guys had studied Muay Thai at the time they began their competitive careers. Jean-Claude van Damme studied Muay Thai, but his primary training was in Shotokan karate, and he also trained seriously in Taekwondo. I just don't see how the actual history of kickboxing and sport karate—even if you restrict your coverage to the American angle on these sports—fits with your statement that Muay Thai is the sole root of 'all' kickboxing and sport karate...

Well... one of the oldest continuous kickboxing tournaments is the ABA's Veteran's Day Kickboxing Tournament. It's been running for nearly 40 years... and it's not Thai boxing. In fact, even I remember when you hardly heard about Thai boxing. And when leg kicks were barred from kickboxing, except in Thai boxing rules.
 

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I had the odd idea that sport karate came from 'proper' karate.
Anyway talking of proper karate I've just finished a wonderful couple of hours of watching Iain Abernethy DVDs. Next best thing to going to one of his seminars (and that's my next aim). His Applied Karate 1 - Punches and Strikes teaches how to use your hands to great effect. His take on the karate 'one punch' thing is of course it would be great to get your opponent/attacker with one punch and that's what one should aim at however it will rarely happen which is why he teaches combinations.

Small sidetrack here. the Bunkai DVD had me going 'Doh" alot lol! Once he'd demonstrated the Bunkai for a move it was so plain and so easy I'd kick myself for not seeing it in all the time I'd been doing those katas! Wonderful stuff. Lots of 'ouch that's gotta hurt' movements and he was demonstrating many that many of the moves work as well when grappling. Recommended for all I reckon!
 

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I seem to recall that the rules for kickboxing were based off Thai rules and some of the kicks, but outside that I'm lost.

By the way, do you know what a Sophist is? Because the way you're throwing that word around makes me think you don't.
 
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Freestyler777

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That muay thai concept i got from wikipedia, but i believe it is true in some sense. Muay Thai is at least 400 years old, American kickboxing can be traced to Joon Rhee and Bruce Lee in the '60s who created 'full contact karate' on the basis of boxing, taekwondo, and probably muay thai influences. Bruce Lee was a big believer in muay thai, and Joon Rhee was the father of american tae kwon do. Maybe american kickboxing isnt directly descended from muay thai, but it is very similar in nature.
There is also savate, which is a french style of kickboxing that has its roots in the 1700's and the way sailors fought each other.
I really don't know enough about the subject to speak, so I will admit that I am ignorant.

A sophist is someone who over-analysizes and elaborates on simple concepts.

Thank you Brian for understanding my mojo.

i think hockey fights are very instructive! They're not wearing gloves when they fight, they are wearing some kind of clothing, and they hold and hit. I think that is very relevant to the way miscreants brawl with each other in bars. MMA guys are naked, wear gloves, and fight on a soft mat, is that more or less realistic? BTW, that's a good topic for another thread!
 

CuongNhuka

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A sophist is someone who over-analysizes and elaborates on simple concepts.

If you were a Sophist you would believe that only your mind and God exist. Everything else is an extension of Sophist philosophy.
 

Tez3

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That muay thai concept i got from wikipedia, but i believe it is true in some sense. Muay Thai is at least 400 years old, American kickboxing can be traced to Joon Rhee and Bruce Lee in the '60s who created 'full contact karate' on the basis of boxing, taekwondo, and probably muay thai influences. Bruce Lee was a big believer in muay thai, and Joon Rhee was the father of american tae kwon do. Maybe american kickboxing isnt directly descended from muay thai, but it is very similar in nature.
There is also savate, which is a french style of kickboxing that has its roots in the 1700's and the way sailors fought each other.
I really don't know enough about the subject to speak, so I will admit that I am ignorant.

A sophist is someone who over-analysizes and elaborates on simple concepts.

Thank you Brian for understanding my mojo.

i think hockey fights are very instructive! They're not wearing gloves when they fight, they are wearing some kind of clothing, and they hold and hit. I think that is very relevant to the way miscreants brawl with each other in bars. MMA guys are naked, wear gloves, and fight on a soft mat, is that more or less realistic? BTW, that's a good topic for another thread!


Oh good grief!

1. Bruce Lee didn't invent full contact karate. It's a bit older than him.
2. A sophist is A. any of a group of pre-Socratic philosophers. B. a person who uses clever or quibbllng but unsound arguments
3. MMA fighters naked... what can I say other than are you sure you're not trolling here?
 

exile

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one of the oldest continuous kickboxing tournaments is the ABA's Veteran's Day Kickboxing Tournament. It's been running for nearly 40 years... and it's not Thai boxing. In fact, even I remember when you hardly heard about Thai boxing. And when leg kicks were barred from kickboxing, except in Thai boxing rules.

Exactly&#8212;so there you go: the relationship between kickboxing and Muay Thai is that there are variants of the former which are influenced by elements from the latter, and variants which are not. And that is a long, long haul from the claim that all kickboxing is 'descended' from Muay Thai, at least on normal assumptions about what the various words involved in that claim mean... :lol:


I had the odd idea that sport karate came from 'proper' karate.

Yeah, you'd think that, no? At least, if someone challenges that way of putting it, you'd think that the burden of proof would be on them...

Anyway talking of proper karate I've just finished a wonderful couple of hours of watching Iain Abernethy DVDs. Next best thing to going to one of his seminars (and that's my next aim). His Applied Karate 1 - Punches and Strikes teaches how to use your hands to great effect. His take on the karate 'one punch' thing is of course it would be great to get your opponent/attacker with one punch and that's what one should aim at however it will rarely happen which is why he teaches combinations.

Small sidetrack here. the Bunkai DVD had me going 'Doh" alot lol! Once he'd demonstrated the Bunkai for a move it was so plain and so easy I'd kick myself for not seeing it in all the time I'd been doing those katas! Wonderful stuff. Lots of 'ouch that's gotta hurt' movements and he was demonstrating many that many of the moves work as well when grappling. Recommended for all I reckon!

And this time, Tez, you have to actually do it&#8212;I want to hear from an MT friend just what one of those seminars is like.

I'm going to be on sabbatical in the UK during much of 2009 and I am damn well sure I'm not leaving without having worked out a way to get to one of IA's seminars.

Oh good grief!

1. Bruce Lee didn't invent full contact karate. It's a bit older than him.
2. A sophist is A. any of a group of pre-Socratic philosophers. B. a person who uses clever or quibbllng but unsound arguments
3. MMA fighters naked... what can I say other than are you sure you're not trolling here?

So far as 1 is concerned, one need merely look at folks like Mas Oyama and John Bluming to see exactly how full contact Kyokushin is... and Mas O. was 17 years older than BL.
 

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